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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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12 months' notice. Now this treaty has to be decided in August; August 24th is the latest day for adhesion, and it is entirely for the Colonies concerned to say whether they wish us to adhere in their name. If they do not adhere, I must say that I think they may find themselves placed at a disadvan- tage. Of course the trade with Japan is not very great at present, but they will be entirely excluded from any benefit which we have obtained, and con- sidering that if the experience of the treaty turns out to be in any way objectionable, they can relieve themselves of its provisions by 12 months' notice, I should think it was advisable that all the Colonies should agree

to its terms.

Sir George Turner.] Where is the benefit, because whatever benefit you get from other commercial nations extends at the same time under the most- favoured-nation clause to us.

The Secretary of State.] You will not get it; you will be specially excluded; you will be specially excluded unless you adhere to the treaty.

Sir George Turner.] But suppose we do adhere, where are the benefits we can possibly derive? That is what has always troubled us; we saw no benefits; nothing but disadvantages to us.

The Secretary of State.] Mr. Anderson, will you explain to the gentlemen present what advantages they would gain from adhering to the Japan treaty ?

The Secretary (Mr. Anderson).] The advantages that they would gain would be the advantages of getting the admission of their goods at the rates of duty fixed in the treaty instead of being subject to the general tariff of Japan. The general tariff has just been passed; it is a very severe tariff. The Foreign Office are now printing it, and I hope to be able to send you copies almost immediately. Then, of course, there are certain advantages.

Sir George Turner.] Yes; but before you pass from that, whatever advantage is given to Great Britain and her Colonies by this treaty would immediately be given to nearly all the commercial nations under that most- favoured-nation clause, would it not?

The Secretary of State.] Yes, but you will be at a disadvantage with regard to the other nations if you do not adhere; you will come under the general tariff, which is a very high and prohibitive tariff, instead of under the special tariff which the treaty prescribes.

Sir George Turner.] Then in the reverse we must give to Japan the same advantages that we give to anybody else.

The Secretary.] Yes.

Sir George Turner.] Supposing we were to enter into a treaty between Victoria and South Australia, the advice of our law officers is that whatever benefit we gave to South Australia we should give to Japan.

The Secretary.] Not South Australia.

Sir George Turner.] Yes, that is the advice of our law officers in the Legal Department.

The Secretary.] That is not the view that is held here.

Sir George Turner.] That is the view our law officers have taken. The Secretary.] That is not the view our law officers have taken ; view is that the general most-favoured-nation clause such as this with Japan does not apply to treaty arrangements within the Empire.

their

The Secretary of State.] That we hold very strongly; we should not agree to your being bound by a concession which you made either to the mother country or to some other Colony to give that under the treaty to Japan.

Mr. Kingston.] You see we are given the power of saying now whether or not we will come into it. If we do not, we are free; if we do specially come

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into it, it will surely be as binding on the Colonies as on the mother country, and if a preference is given, if we wanted to give a preference to the mother country, will it not be met with the very same difficulties as meet us in connection with the question-

The Secretary of State.] No, the ordinary most-favoured-nation clause does not interfere with arrangements between the mother country and the Colonies or between the Colonies themselves.

Mr. Kingston.] Not even when there is a special provision by which the Colonies exercise the option of saying whether or not they will be bound by it ?

The Secretary of State.] No.

Mr. Kingston.] Have you a copy of the proposed treaty ?

Sir John Forrest.] Have most countries of the world accepted this Japan treaty ?

The Secretary of State.] Most of the European nations have accepted treaties.

Sir H. M. Nelson.] And the United States too.

Sir John Forrest.] What class of people will there be to which these high duties, the ordinary tariff duties, will apply if every one is in the treaty ?

The Secretary of State.] Very few.

Sir John Forrest.] Everybody seems to be in the treaty,

The Secretary of State.] It is a very common rule in countries with pro- tective tariff to put what they call a general tariff forward as a sort of lever to get these treaties from other countries, and then they have corresponding advantages. Japan is offering this advantage now to Great Britain and her Colonies, but I think in arguing the question, in taking your decision, you may assume as absolute that you will not be hampered in any way in your dealings with other Colonies or the mother country by accepting it.

The Earl of Selborne.] And that you can get out of it altogether in 12 months.

The Secretary of State.] And that you can get out of it altogether in 12 months; but I should add to that that if you do not come in now, but want to come in afterwards, I think there would be very great difficulty indeed about that.

Sir John Forrest.] About the question of subjects of Japan coming into our Colonies, they can do that as they like.

Sir George Turner.] Artisans and labourers are the only persons we can legislate against.

Sir John Forrest.] Artisans and labourers.

Sir George Turner.] Artisans and labourers, not hawkers; you would not call a hawker an artisan or labourer.

Sir John Forrest.] They are not so very numerous.

Sir George Turner.] You can never tell.

Sir E. N. C. Braddon.] There is a strong feeling against entering into this treaty for fear of our markets being glutted by cheaper manufactures and goods of Japan. If we encourage the trade relations, no doubt it would prejudice not only our own local manufactures, but British manufactures. They seem to be manufacturing everything in Japan-every large European article.

The Secretary of State.] But you will have to make special legislation to

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