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the question, of course, of free trade, and preference to her Colonies. Now, at all events you have asked the question, Are we pre- pared to say that we should do as Canada has done? I may say at once that we are differently situated entirely from Canada in that respect. Canada would, of course, reap advantages from this arrangement with Britain; but such advantages would not accrue to New Zealand; and I would say myself that I would be prepared, after carefully considering the matter of letting the treaty be denounced, I should be prepared to ask New Zealand, as far as she could, to do something for the mother country that we are not prepared to do for another.

The Secretary of State.] Independently of the question which you have asked, whether the mother country would make a complete change in her fiscal arrangements?

Mr. Seddon.] Well, I have taken for granted this, that as put by you, the question is for us to make a suggestion, and to leave it to you as to what you could do to help us in return, but not to take it as coming from you in the first instance.

The Secretary of State.] As the question of that speech has been referred to, I should like to explain. I endeavoured to make my meaning perfectly clear. It is much easier, probably, to do so in conversation than it is in a speech, however elaborate, but I then stated that there were three courses open for securing this commercial union. The first was by all the Colonies becoming free trade like the mother country. That, I regret, is impracticable, at all events under present circumstances. The second was a proposal which I had found in the proceedings of the conference at Ottawa, that the Colonies should offer a preference of some kind, a percentage of preference, and that the mother country should then in return put on the same percentage of duty upon all foreigners. That again I explained was entirely impracticable from the British point of view. The offer was not good enough; that it could be so conclusively proved that that would be almost a fatal proceeding for us to take, it would be such an interference with our existing trade that I should say at once that we could not consider it. Then I suggested myself a third proposal, that a Zollverein should be formed on the terms of absolute free trade as between the mother country and the Colonies, but that the Colonies should be left free to make their own tariffs against foreign countries, and that the mother country should be invited to put some duty upon goods to be speci- fied, that is to say, those which form the chief products of the Colonies. I said if an offer of that kind were made to us, I thought that it would be con- sidered in a favourable spirit, and the Government, in the first instance, would be bound most carefully to consider it, and probably to make some proposal in regard to it. But what I want to point out is that that involves, as a first condition, that there should be free trade between the mother country and the Colonies, no duties whatever levied as between the mother country and the Colonies, except purely revenue duties upon such articles as spirits and tobacco.

Mr. Reid.] Yes.

The Secretary of State.] Of course, if the Colonies were prepared to make an offer of that kind the view which I expressed would be at once tested, but up to the present time I am without even any expectation that such an offer could be made, because I am assured by some of my friends that the competition which the protected industries of those Colonies chiefly fear is the competition of the mother country.

Mr. Seddon.] The mother country?

The Secretary of State.] Yes. Take, for instance, what Sir George Turner has just said, that the interests which have arisen there under their protective system would fear the competition of the mother country, and would not be satisfied to have duties imposed only upon foreign goods while there was free interchange between the Colonies and the mother country.

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Sir George Turner.] It certainly would be impossible with us at the COMMERCIAL present time.

Mr. Seddon.] I may say at once with respect to that, that we do not fear the competition of the mother country as far as goods and manufactures are concerned. Of course, naturally, as a young country we must endeavour to promote our own industries and to train our own artisans, and there are some manufactures which we have natural advantages for, and in this respect there would be simply a friendly rivalry between the mother country and us, but what we object to in the treaties as they now stand is that in the Colonies, at the present time, there are prison made goods of some nations coming in, for instance: there are also cheaper paid labour made goods; and in some of these foreign nations, they work long hours, they are poorly paid, and highly sweated.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] What country do you refer to.

Mr. Seddon.] Germany, Belgium, and America. There is no doubt that their hours are longer, and they are highly sweated. Our artizans complain against that. For ourselves, I would without hesitation say that as regards the competition of the mother country we do not fear that, and the workmen in New Zealand and the workmen at home are one. That is our feeling. But there are other ways in which I think we might assist the mother country outside of those mentioned by Mr. Chamberlain ; by giving facilities with respect to the transport of food stuffs and English manufactured goods, and on lines similar to the facility given by foreign nations in the encouragement of trade, which the mother country has never

touched at all.

The Secretary of State.] In regard to transport ?

Mr. Seddon.] Transport. There is no doubt at the present time that, as Mr. Reid must admit, the last time a vessel went to Sydney, it appeared from her manifest and from the goods she brought where she had been and what was the class of goods brought by that steamer as compared with others, and I say that there was such a percentage as made a profit to the British merchants; there can be no doubt about that. But, as I say, that is injurious to the British Colonies and to British shipping. That is a matter of detail and, I think, outside altogether the larger question raised by you, but it is one which we shall have to deal with, that there are other ways by which assistance could be rendered by the Colonies which would be to the interest of the mother country and to the improvement of the present condition of affairs; and, knowing that to be the case, I would undertake to make a recommendation to my Colony that we should meet the others in these regards.

Mr. Reid.] Then you would like to see, on the part of the Imperial Government, liberal subsidies given to the British lines of steamers carrying mails and things of that sort between here and the Colonies.

Mr. Seddon.] That is the conclusion we came to, I think, for making recommendations for enquiry. First of all let us know the ground upon which we would stand by the enquiry which we have recommended to take place, to see how far this is an assistance to foreign trade, as against the trade of Britain. If they find that that is so, and that there are incans of assistance which can be rendered without violation of the treaties, I say that our honour must be maintained, then I think myself that something could be done without interfering with the larger question, which would take some time. I fear public opinion must be ripened and people must be educated before you can proceed.

The Secretary of State.] Yes; the only thing I have to say to that is this. I see no possible objection to such an inquiry being instituted, and it might be instituted at once; but are we to wait to denounce the treaties till that inquiry has been concluded, and we have the results of it, or are we at once to denounce the treaties in view of a promise at once to make some sort of preference such as Canada has offered to us without conditions.

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