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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O. 885

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PACIFIC CABLE COMMITTEE:

The Hon. Mr. Cook: I tell you what; we will leave out this question of the transcontinental line --that is your own affair. Let us start free of it, and then we might agree to the population basis.

The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: My argument is that in all these matters Australia should be one-not divided in interest. Then, is it not a mistake to lay down a principle which for ever precludes the possibility of their being one? Our case is a special one, but that does not entitle us to less consideration.

The Hon. Mr. Cook: It does not govern future action at all, if it is to be a special one. The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: I am not talking on behalf merely of South Australia, but of all the other Colonies.

The Hon. Mr. Cook: If it is a special matter it does not govern future action at all.

The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: But it is a precedent as to the manner in which other Colonies are to join in action.

The Hon. Mr. Reeves: I think it is apropos of this that I ought to tell the Conference of a communication I got from my Government this morning. I cabled to Mr. Ward yesterday, as I said I would, with regard to the terms on which New Zealand could come in as a contributing Colony. and do He replies that of course it would be very disadvantageous to us to come in on an equally responsible footing with the other three Colonies; at the same time, he would be prepared to give way, 80, annexing, however, the stipulation that Victoris and New South Wales should join with us in facing any possible loss on the present cable.

The Hon. Mr. Duffy: Thank you.

The Hon. Mr. Cook: It would not take us-me, at any rate-very long to decide that matter. The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: You are making tremendous difficulties.

The Hon. Mr. Duffy: There is no chance of Victoria coming in at all, unless on an equally responsible basis. (Long pause.)

The Hon. Mr. Cook: Well, that raises the whole question again.

The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: It is the largest question that has ever been raised in any federal undertaking.

The Hon. Mr. Reeves: I did not know what communications passed between the three gentlemen, or any representative of theirs, who met in Sydney and our Government in regard to this Conference, but when I left Mr. Ward did not think this would come up, so he naturally sent me here without any information on the point. He told me distinctly the Conference was going to discuss two points: the cable route and the appointment of delegates. I came really expecting that the Conference would address itself to these two points, not on this contribution matter. I wired last night to Mr. Word. That is how the matter stands.

The Hon. Mr. Cook: We stand in this position. Both Victoria and New South Wales came into this project, not because there was any intense feeling throughout the community that we ought to, or to gain any pressing commercial advantages. In that respect we are different from both Queensland and New Zealand. We came in without stipulation or reservation of any kind, and I do not see that the Colonies more directly interested should raise all these objections, trying to saddle the two older Colonies who are coming in purely on federal lines, for international purposes, with unequal We do not responsibilities. I think we ought to meet fairly.

The Hon. Mr. Duffy: My Government will have the same difficulty in this matter. care two straws whether the cable is constructed or not, we come into it with a patriotic sentiment and a federal idea. It may benefit the whole of Australia, but we have a very fair cable service at present efficiently conducted and not much too dear. Nevertheless, we are willing to come into this Dr. Cockburn mentions Tasmania-well, it might fairly project on a fair busis, that is an equal one. be made an exception, it is a little place outside Australia altogether, its telegrams are of little value -a few hundreds of pounds-so I think we might make it a negligible quantity altogether. But as far as the grown-up Colonies are concerned, it should be a sine qua non that they should enter on equal terms. We are entering on a large commercial and industrial undertaking, which we hope will be a success. We do not speak to Great Britain and Canada about a population basis, but of equal shares. I think we might fairly say, as Queensland has generously waived any claim to the idea of a population basis, and has offered to take her fair burden the same as the other Colonies, that South Australia should take the same view. I never dreamed New Zealand would want anything else; we are making her special concessions on account of her geographical position, but Dr. Cockburn's position is we never dreamed she would hesitate about coming in on equal terms. difficult, but I hope, as we are meeting here to deal with the matter fairly, and let us say generously, It should not, and need not, form a prece that he will see his way to sec with us in the matter. dent. (Dr. Cockburn: that is always said, "it will not form a precedent.") Victoria has had little consideration in the past, and I think we are entitled in these days to a little fair play. Let some of the other Colonics help us a little bit.

The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: I do not want the impression to gain either here or anywhere else that any difficulties are being raised by me, or any attempt being made to raddle the larger Colonies with anything unforeseen. It appears to me that it is the other way, this is something altogether new; it is not raised by South Australia or New Zealand, but by others, and it is altogether new to us, and it must be confessed that nothing of this sort has ever been mentioned directly or indirectly at any previous conferences on this subject: 1 do not know whether it was mentioned, or even hinted ut, in Canada

The Hon. Mr. Thynne: I do not think any discussion ever took place between the representatives of the Colonies as to any question of proportion. Perhaps Dr. Cockburn will allow me to say that this matter has come up in one or two different forms. In the first place, my Premier, Mr. Nelson, after thoroughly investigating all the information he could get about the Pacific Cable, went so far as

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to advise his own Parliament that if the other Colonies did not co-operate, to take the responsibility of the whole third. (Dr. Cockburn: the whole third ?) Yes; and when we cane to discuss the matter privately with Mr. Duffy and Mr. Cook, I stated on behalf of Queensland that we were pre- pared to take any reasonable part of the risk which they thought it a fair thing for us to take. Queensland has said it, and I expected New Zealand also would say that they are prepared to take their equal share with the other Colonies, and that is the reason why New South Wales and Victoria have taken up the matter so satisfactorily. If it had not been for that it would probably have been left for New Zealand and Queensland possibly to endeavour to get the cable constructed. Now four of the Colonies have combined to bring this matter before the Imperial Government, and have got a fairly satisfactory reply, and the present stage having been reached it is desirable that the Commis- sioners to be appointed for the Colonies should represent, if possible, the whole of Australasia. If the Western Colonies do not see their way to come into it, the others will have to take their part and wait until those standing out intimate their willingness to co-operate. As to the amount of respon- Bibility, what is it? The most extravagant calculation of the outlay is somewhere about 125,000l. a year-principal, interest, and working expenses; of which it is proposed that 40 odd thousand be upportioned to Great Britain, the same to Canada, and the same to Australasia. And what is South Australia's share? The maximum would be 8,000l. a year each, out of which come the share of the receipta from the cable. What is there to be afraid of? What is there in that little item for South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania to object to?

The Hon. Mr. Reeves: There is this, that I must respect the intimation of opinion from my Post- master-General. I think it is a little unfortunate that we do not seem to have been prepared in all the Colonies to discuss this question at this Conference. I agree to a large extent with what Mr. Thynne has said, that the prospects of loss, of substantial loss, are comparatively remote. The standard of negotiation must be that of friendly settlement, a little give and take. But the position ie, that my Government at this moment does not seem to be prepared to swallow the principle of equal responsibilities without some kind of quid pro quo, which Victoria and New South Wales do not seem inclined to grant.

The Hon. Mr. Cook: I do not, I say candidly. We give you the connexions, and you take equal responsibilities.

The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: I am placed in an unfortunate position. This is still more new to me. Like Mr. Reeves, I came here with certain indications as to the matters we were to discuss, but I wish I had known as much as the other Colonies appear to have been in a position to know. You place South Australia, and probably also New Zealand, in a very difficult position in inviting our attendance here to discuss certain questions which have been discussed before on a certain under- standing, and then raising a question which has never been discussed publicly before, and it seems to me that it is placing my Colony at a disadvantage.

The Hon. Mr. Cook: Allow me to say that, wherever the idea has come from, we have always had an idea that New Zealand would willingly take an equal responsibility in this matter. where it has come from, but there has always been that opinion.

I cannot say

The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: There may have been communications from New Zealand (Mr. Reeves: "No"), but there have been none from South Australia to that effect. It has always been recog- nised that the reason that Mr. Playford did not attend that deputation in England' was because South Australia did not see that this was a matter necessitating the appointment of a Commission, and that was solely for the appointment of a Commission. I am sorry I have not been placed by my colleagues in possession of information on a question of this sort, which comes so completely new to Put yourselves in our position-the matter is not new to you; you have discussed it before, and possibly you cannot understand the difficulty and dilemma in which a person altogether ignorant of what has preceded is placed.

me.

The Hon. Mr. Cook: We make every allowance for you; it is New Zealand we are surprised at. I told my Government repeatedly that the other Colonies respectively were willing to take equal shares in the scheme.

The Hon. Mr. Reeves: You will understand, while I regret that any obstacle should arise, I cannot take up an apologetic position on behalf of my Government, and do not do so, for I am totally unaware that any indication has ever been given by them that they would come in on your basis. I know nothing of the kind.

? open The Hon. Dr. Cockburn: We all want to see business done; cannot we leave it

The Hon. Mr. Thynne: If we leave this matter unsettled now, we may as well not do anything at all. If we cannot give some information to our Commissioners on this point, then you shift to London the whole burden of investigation, for one of the functions of that Commission will be the question of the apportionment of cost, and why should we refer to the Commissioners questions we ought to settle among ourselves? It means shunting the thing back here again, to be kicked about like a football, then another debate at a table like this two or three years hence. One of the functions of this Commission will be to prepare a Bill, to pass through all the different Parliamente, giving authority for entering into the liability necessary, and unless we give them our draft instructions, it would mean that the Commissioners in London would have to be continually cabling out to the different Colonies over questions, just in the "way, perhaps, that South Australia and New Zealand will have to do now.

The Hon. Mr. Reeves: So the Commissioners will, surely; we are not binding our Governments over this. It will entirely depend upon the extent to which the proceedings of this Conference are ratified by the Governments.

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