CO885-(6-7) — Page 376

381

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :--

C.O. 885

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE |BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

3 December 1896.]

Mr. Jones continued.

192

Mr. LAMB.

3049. Yes, well, how would you reconcile that with your opinion now ?-When I said that I had in view a cable provided by commercial enterprise.

3050. But what difference would that make to the existing company?-I think it would make a great difference in their attitude towards the Government.

you

3051. Well, I suppose the Government are not very much concerned with the attitude of a private company towards the Government?- Well, my own view is that the Government of this country are generally very considerate of existing interests, and I believe that they are supported by public opinion in that line of policy. 3052. Existing interests, no doubt Chartered interests are always considered to be observed, but here is an independent, a foreign company doing business through foreign states, reaching think our own territory, it is true, but do that the British public here would justify the refusal of the Government to entertain any pro- posal conjointly with the other colonies to bring about a better system, a more direct, a more Imperial system than now exists? - I am not aware that we are talking now of a foreign company; and I must ask you to be kind enough to understand that I have to point out what I conceive to be difficulties or obstacles in the way, but it is for the Government to consider how far Imperial interests out-weigh the objec- tions that have been pointed out.

3053. Yes, but, Mr. Lamb, you are here repre- senting a branch of the Imperial Department, and your opinions would naturally carry more weight than they would under other circum- You also said stances, with the public, I mean. that in your opinion the Eastern line would always remain the best route; can you say why you have arrived at that conclusion? I do not recall that I have said it would always remain the best route except in so far as it is compared with a single cable.

3054. Are you an engineer, an electrician?-- No.

3055. Then you are not giving your opinions from a scientific standpoint at all?—No.

3056. You are only repeating opinions that you have received from Mr. Preece and others on that point, judging from your own interpreta- tion of what you have understood on the subject ?-I am not repeating Mr. Preece's opinions.

3057. You quoted him pretty often; excuse me, that is the reason I say that. I quoted him with reference to the maximum speed of the cable.

3058. Is Mr. Preece an electrician?-Cer- tainly.

3059. You said, if I took it down right, that your opinion was that the Eastern line would remain the best_route ?—If you had a single cable across the Pacific I believe it would.

3060. It was not with that qualification; I quite understand, of course, that that qualifion tion would apply to it. Are you aware that the Government at the present day direct their cables by one route in some cases?-In regard

Mr. Jones-continued.

[Continueri.

to the Atlantic they are compelled by this old agreement to hand all unordered American traffic to the Anglo-American Telegraph Company.

3061. Woll, I think that is hardly the case if I had an interview my information is correct. with the manager of the Bermuda Cable C'om- pany yesterday, and he told me that all communica- tions from the Government come over the direct line, and they have orders at Bermuda and Halifax to transmit all cables over the direct line?—Yes; our contention is that Bermuda is not included in America, and that Bermuda, therefore, is not within the purview of that agreement.

courac.

3062. I see. Well, that may account for it, of You wrote a letter in 1893 by direction of the Postmaster-General. In that letter I notice that you estimate the cost of the cable at 2,920,000/?—Yes; that was an estimate which I obtained from our engineer-in-chief and electri- cian, Mr. Preece. It was based on a cable of 940 lbs. of copper and 940 lbs. of gutta-percha.

3063. It would appear that the estimate of Mr. Preece was excessive, or, at least, unneces- sary, if we may judge of the evidence which we have taken from the other manufacturers of cables and electricians on that subject; such a have cable is not required.-I do not think you had an estimate from any manufacturers for such a cable.

3064. No; we have not had an estimate; but I mean the evidence would go to show that a cable of that size was not necessary, that it was unwieldy, that what was necessary or called for was something like 550 lbs. of copper or 600 lbs. of copper, so that Mr. Preece's and your estimate at that time of 2,900,000l., together with some other items of 60,0001. a year for maintenance, which is embraced in the other tenders, would make 3,200,000, and you have an absolute tender from the company to do the same work and maintain it for three years for 1,500,000%.? -I do not admit that contention: it is for a very different cable.

I

3065. Well, it was a cable for 12 years, such as they considered necessary at that time, and, as would appear from the evidence we have before us, all that would be required now. admit that your cable was a much heavier one, but still, at the same time, it would show that the cost was very mnch in excess of what would actually be necessary under the circumstances, making a difference of about 1,700,000. Now you have reduced it to about 2,000,000, which would still leave 500,0001. in excess of the present. estimate. If you were out so much, as I venture to think you were at that time, is it not quite possible that you may still be in excess of the actual necessary outlay for that purpose ?--It is possible, but I do not think it is probable.

3066. Well, is it not probable we will say, or possible, that a man like Mr. Gray or Mr. Siemens and Mr. Taylor, and these men, who are practical men for manufacturing cables, and electricians as well, would be able to form a pretty correct judgment and estimate on that point; would it not appear so?—I think I should prefer to see a formal tender from them before I

3 December 1896.]

193

Mr. LAMB.

Mr. Jones continued. compared their views with any estimate given by our engineer in chief.

may

3067. You remember they said they did con- sider that as a tender?-Yes, I do; but I point out one thing, which has been left out of these calculations ?

3068. Certainly. These cable manufacturers would require advances, and it is a very common thing for a cable manufacturer to demand 20 per cent. of the total cost of the cable down before he begins to manufacture it, besides getting further advances as the work proceeds.

3069. That is from private parties, but not from a government I think he would require it from a government.

3070. Ah; but that is subject to arrange- ment?-No; pardon me, it enters into the essence of the case, because if you, as a government, are not prepared to pay down 20 per cent., in order to enable him to buy his material, and to get ready for the manufacture of the cable, he must borrow the money, and then he must increase his price.

3071. Yes, that was stated.-Yes, sir, that was stated; but that is not in the estimate of the Silvertown Company.

3072. No, because they had no doubt con- sidered that, but they did not put it in, because probably they did not think it necessary. I fancy that if they had thought it necessary they would have put it in. I think they assumed that they would get payment from the Govern ment. Now if the Government paid this money, say 400,0001, down, the Government would be standing out of interest upon that money.

3073. You are aware of the number of stations that there are between this and Australia for re-transmission ?-I have heard it stated here as eight.

3074. In this book, which I have before me here (Report of the Hydrographer of the Navy) it is made 13: England to Lisbon, Lisbon to Gibraltar, Gibraltar to Malta, Malta to Alex- andria, Alexandria to Suez, Suez to Aden, Aden to Bombay, Bombay to Madras, Madras to Penang, Penang to Singapore, Singapore to Banjowangie, Banjowangie to Australia; then Port Darwin to other parts and Sydney. That, of course, makes 13 repetitions. Now, Mr. Hesse already mentioned, I think, eight of these; the Government report that they have 13. Do you not think it possible that you run greater riske of error and delay in transmission over 13 different repeating stations than you would with five, than you would have over the Pacific cable?—I am not aware that it is only five.

3075. Or would be; you can take it down. There is Canso?—No, sir, you must begin with Waterville or Valencia.

3076. All right, Waterville, Canso, Van- couver? I think there you are making a large assumption.

3077. I do not know that they would not go right through; I do not know that they would repeat to Montreal. --I do not think they would go right through.

3078. I think they would. It is my impression they would; but I do not give it us a positive fact. We will take Montreal and then Van-

་

[Continued.

Mr. Jones continued. couver, Fanning and Fiji and Norfolk Island and Australia, that would be eight over all those against 13?--I am not sure 13 is right; I accept the evidence of the Company.

3079. Well, this is the report of the Hydro- grapher of the Navy?-I do not think that the Hydrographer knows better than the company themselves.*

3080. That is what Dr. Muirhead gave the other day; he mentioned the same. This is official, and I think not likely to be in error. Do you not think there is a great deal in the Imperial standpoint with regard to the use of those cables; those cables go from one place to another from these various harbours. Are they not very much more likely to be interfered with in shallow water with much less trouble but with greater annoyance to us than they would be in the Pacific?--I am not sure about that. I think that the cables which serve other countries as well as ours have the security which arises from the fact that other countries are concerned in them. I think that an enemy attempting to damage us by breaking some of those cables which land on foreign territory would at the same time very much damage his own allies and friends, and would hesitate to do it.

3081. Does it not occur to you that it is an advantage to the Admiralty to be able to com- municate direct with the Fleet, the admiral at Bermuda?-Certainly; they have no other means of doing it except by the cable.

3082. But would it not be equally a great advantage to them to communicate with ports in the Pacific and Australia by a cable under our own control?—I think there is a good deal to be said on both sides; that is my view of it.

Mr. Murray.

were

the

3083. Mr. Jones suggested that you representing your department here; are Committee to understand that the views you have been expressing are the views of the Post- master General ?—No.†

Chairman.

3084. I have one question, Mr. Lamb; it is going back to this question of the estimate Mr. Preece has given as to the number of theoretical The theoretical number of words; the maximum and practical words that this cable would carry.

The transmitting stations are as follows:-

FIRST ROUTE.

Porthcurno. Gibraltar.

Malta. Alexandria.

Suez.

Aden.

Bombay.

Madras. Singapore. Banjoewangi.

SECOND ROUTE.

Marseilles. Alexandria

Suez. Aden.

Bombay.

Madras.

Singapore.

Banjoewangi.

The number of landing places of the cables is not an absolute guide to the number of transmitting stations.- J. C. L.

t I appeared at the request of the Committee and with the permission of the Postmaster General.-J. C. L.

BB

194