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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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Reference :-

TILLC.O. 885

6

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

2 December 1896.]

Mr. PLAYFORD.

Sir Donald Smith-continued. increase of business would still give them a fair return for their money, even should there be an additional cable?-Of course I cannot speak with any confidence on that; they would be able to answer you better than I would, because I do not know what profits they have made.

2768. They have, at any rate, had dividends of 7 per cent.; I think we have had it in evidence: 5 per cent. and 2 per cent. bonus, which is one and the same thing. I certainly should not compensate them unduly or un- fairly.

Mr. Jones.

2769. They admit, you are aware, that if they lost one third of their traffic, and the rate was reduced to 38. from 48. 9d., they would still be able to pay over 4 per cent. dividend to their stockholders on even their watered stock?-No, I do not know anything about that.

2770. You will see it is in evidence.-You may have it in evidence, but I do not know.

2771. Do you think they would require much those circumstances?— compensation under Under those circumstances they would not re- quire so much, undoubtedly.

Mr. Murray.

2772. What is the loss which your Govern- ment look forward to being compensated for ?- The basis of the loss which was agreed upon at the Conference (it is not in the resolution, but it was discussed) was that the receipts from our line, if they fell below the receipts of the line for the last five years, should be made good to the colonies.

Chairman.

2773. The average receipts?—That if the receipts for any one year fell below the rate of the average receipts of the lust five years then they should be made good by the colonies.

Mr. Murray.

2774. Then, supposing the Pacific cable was laid in the year 1900, your Government would expect to have made good to them the average gross receipts of the five years preceding that No, the average gross receipts for the five years preceding 1895 or 1896; that would be for 1895, 1894, 1893, 1892, and 1891; the average receipts, so much; if your what are they per year? receipts after the cable is laid fall below that We should then just pay average make it up. our working expenses and the interest on the money we have borrowed; no profit.

Mr. Gillies.

2775. Is that to be for all time?—Yes, that is to be for all time; I should imagine 80.

2776. Do you think that that was contem- South plated ? It Wae contemplated by Australia, undoubtedly, I should say. What was contemplated by the other Colonies I do not know. There was no time given.

Sir and Samuel.

[Continued.

2777. Five years is given; it does not state for what time.-No. As I say, there is no time mentioned, but I should say that South Australia agreed for all time.

Sir Donald Smith.

2778. Suppose you were to sell the line as it now stands to the various Governments, or to any company that may take up the cable, how much money would it involve?We would never think of selling it to a company; we are quite willing, I believe, to hand it over to the Govern- ments of the colonies, as a whole, to work.

2779. To lease it?-No, to sell it, to hand it over. Here is what it has cost us; pay us

what it has cost us, and take the line."

2780. That is selling it. Would it be 100,0007. altogether?—If we were to sell the line?

2781. Yes-If we were to sell the line we would want at least five hundred thousand and odd pounds; the cost of the line.

2782. Half-a-million pounds?—Half-a-million.

it on the Minutes.

"to

Chairman.

2783. The official position of the colony is to be found in the statement made by the Hon. Dr. Cockburn. think it just as well to have "South Australia is willing join in the project provided that a guarantee, either from the contributing colonies alone, or jointly with the Imperial Government, be given, "that the financial position of South Australia, "as regards the Port Darwin line, be maintained on the basis of the average of the last five

"? That is it. y curs

""

66

2784. That is the official position of your colony? That is the official position of my colony exactly.

Mr. Murray,

2785. Do you happen to have the figures of No, I have not, that calculation by you? - because I have no figures later than 1893, and there is 1894 and 1895. I know there has been a gain, but up to 1893 it has been all loss practically, except in the case of one or two

years.

2786. I think perhaps the Committee would like to know that; could you send it? - I could telegraph for the figures and let

them.

you

have

2787. They are not in this country?-They are not in this country.

Chairman.

2788. We would certainly like that. I will send you a return, if you like, showing the receipts on the one hand and the expenditure on the other hand, of the line from its starting up till the end of 1895. I could not do it later because this year has not gone out yet.

2789. It would include all the five years re- ferred to? It would include all the five years referred to.

2 December 1896.]

Mr. Murray.

Mr. PLATFORD.

2790. I think all the Committee would like to know would be the figures for those five years, so that they might know the basis on which the

Mr. Murray-continued.

[Continued.

compensation is to be calculated! I will give you the whole five years then.

The Witness withdrew,

Mr. W. P. REEVES, called in; and Examined.

Chairman.

2791. Mr. REEVES, I think you are Agent General for New Zealand ?—Yes.

2792. You are aware of the Pacific cable. project which this Committee is appointed to consider?--The New Zealand Government has been for some years anxious to see the cable laid, and I think, has consistently supported it at various conferences held in different parts in Australasia.

2793. Would you be kind enough to inform the Committee in your own order the view that your Government take on this subject? Of course, we shall be glad to have your private opinion also on any point that you wish particularly to press upon us? We wish, of course, to see the cable laid both for reasons of ordinary communication, and as we think it may possibly do something to foster trade between America and New Zealand.

Our position,

as

that of a somewhat lonely group of islands in the Pacific, makes telegraphic communication of the very first importance to us, inasmuch as we cannot communicate quickly with any civilised place in the world except by telegraph. The duplicate cable which connects us with Australia is, of course, our only means of communication with the outer world. Our relations, of course, with the Company which laid the cable have been friendly and satisfactory; I think at the same time it is not altogether a satisfactory position for us to be dependent I can hardly say upon a single wire, because it is a duplicate cable- but to be dependent upon a single liue and a single company, which latter is perhaps even more to the point. What we want, of course, in the Pacific cable is a British link with the outer world; therefore a l'acific cable which should pass across the ocean from America to the continent of Australia would not meet our views, as we should still entirely depend for communi- cation with the outer world upon the present line between New Zealand and Australia.

2794. Which alternative routes would suit New Zealand then ?-First of all, there was the one favoured by the Australasian Conference which sat at Wellington, I think, in the beginning of 1895 or the end of 1894; I think it was the early part of 1895. The route there favoured by the Conference was one from Vancouver to Fiji, of course touching at various points on the way, Vancouver to Fiji, Fiji to New Zealand, and New Zealand to Australia. However, at the Conference afterwards held at the beginning of this year at Sydney, at which I was present, it was found that the Australian delegates were not willing to continue to support that proposal. It was suggested to that Conference that a direct line should be laid either between Fiji and

Chairman-continued. Australia, leaving out New Zealand, or from Fiji, I think, to Norfolk Island and Australia. I am not so sure about the latter, but I think the suggestion was made by the Queensland delegate that there should be a direct line to Australia, leaving New Zealand out. Naturally that did not suit the views of the Government which I represented, and a compromise was arrived at, which is the meaning of that rather peculiar- looking route 011 the

from Fiji to Norfolk Island, and forking there for Queens- land and New Zealand. It was a compromise arrived at to settle the differences between Of course we Queensland and New Zealand. took figures and calculations into account, and it did not seem that this forking route would Either of those two be specially expensive.

For routes will suit us very well I may say.

+

map,

the three, the next best route would be a Pacific

Vancouver via cable simply from Fanning Island and Fiji to New Zealand.

line We should still only have one

with the outer world with our present line with Australia as far as Australia is concerned, but we should be in direct communication with America, and in that way we should have a But I do not second opening to the world. know whether such a route ns that would suit the Australian Governments, and, in addition, there would be this disadvantage, that this Pacific cable would be, let us say, public property, the property of the Empire, from Vancouver to New Zealand, but the length between New Zealand and Australia would belong to the company. I, perhaps, may be allowed to say that the feeling, I think, of our Government is distinctly in favour of the Pacific cable being a public, a State

concern.

2795. Before we come to that, might I venture a question of route? You are aware that a route has been suggested which would utilise the present French cable to New Caledonia. Has your Government any views on that subject?— I think I might say that that would not suit us at all. France is a foreign power and is the ally of Russia. In addition to that I understand that the cable route between New Caledonia and

Queensland is absolutely controlled by the French Company, and that very stringent conditions have been made with regard to its control. I speak subject to correction.

2796. Again, an alternative has been suggested of going to the Sandwich Islands, which we have reason to believe cannot be done without the consent of the Congress of the United States. Have you any knowledge at all of the attitude which the United States would be likely to take

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