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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

30 November 1896.]

Chairman-continuel.

148

Mr. LAMB.

price of telegraphing, whereas now he is at an advantage. The advantage would be withdrawn, and he would be placed at a disadvantage as compared with the citizen of the United States.

Sir Saul Samuel.

2373. I do not see that?-Well, in this way; the British merchant pays 4s. 9. a word for his telegram, and the New York merchant pays 5s. 9d., and the San Franscisco pays, I think, 6s.

But to take the New York merchant, he is now at a disadvantage as compared with the British merchant of a shilling a word. If you have this cable made across the Pacific the British merchant will pay 3s. and the New York merchant will, I suppose, pay something like 2s., or, at the outside, 2s. 3d. Let us assume the latter figure. He is then 9. better off than the Britisher, whereas now he is 1s. worse off. So he will improve his position to the extent of Is. 9.; his relative position.

Chairmun.

2374. Is the effect of this opinion of yours that if the Pacific Cable were established it would give the United States an advantage, which it does not HOW possess, over British merchants for the trade with China, Japan, and Australia? Yes, certainly. I am thinking only of Australia at present: but it would give him an advantage with regard to the whole of that trade.

2375. To the Eastern trade? --Yes.

2376. Therefore, from the point of view of the Eastern trade, to put it perfectly frankly, you are opposed to the Pacific Cable?-From the point of view of the British trader.

2377. But does it rest only with the British be a Empire to say that there is going to Pacific Cable ?-I understand that no country has yet made up its mind to have such a cable, and commercial enterprise has failed to provide it, and that the question is whether Great Britain shall render assistance to establish this line of communication.

2378. Are you aware that there have been only in the last Session of Congress two pro- posals before the Congress of the United States for making a cable across the Pacific via the Sandwich Islands to Japan ?-Yes, I am aware of it.

Mr. Jones.

2379. May I be allowed to ask whether the advantages which you assume to accrue to the United States in the event of the rate being reduced would not be of equal advantage to the colonies of the Crown, Canada and Australasia? -If the trade were equal, but I have shown that at present the volume of trade is so much greater with the United States, and the number of telegrame is 20 times greater to and from the United States than it is to and from Canada, nearly 20 times.

2380. Quite so, but that condition of things cannot be supposed to continue to exist. Trade with Canada is just commencing to develope, and

Mr. Jones-continued.

[Continued.

therefore any thing that would cheapen the com- munication between Canada and Australia would hed as great advantage to the Colonies, whicht are part of the possessions of the Crown, as it would be to the United States. I wish merely to bring that point to your notice.---I think it quite possible that the conditions of trade will justify some day a cable across the Pacific, and that commercial enterprise will provide it.

Chairman.

2381. But assuming that an American cable was laid r the Sandwich Islands to Japan, that would have the same effect on British trade with the East that you fear from any Pacific table? - Not to Australasia.

2382. No to the East and China and Japan? Yes, I think it would, but not to Australasia. 2383. And do you not think it practically certain that if a cable was laid from San Francisco to Japan, via Honolulu, that it follows apparently for certain that in the course of a few years a junction would be made between New Caledonia and Honolulu ?—1 think it is quite possible.

2384. And then you would have a cable to China and Japan on the one hand and tu Australia on the other, which would have all the deleterious effects to British trade which you fear ?—I think it is quite possible, but it would not have been established with the aid and assistance of the British Government.

2385. But it would be entirely in foreign hands? Yes, it might be. There have been, I ought to say there are, rival schemes for laying a cable across the Pacific in British hands; and

it is possible that these schemes might be carried out in preference to the American scheme.

Sir Saul Samuel.

2386. The cable from New Caledonia to Australia, that is in foreign hands ?—That is so.

2387. It belongs to a French company?-But I was rather thinking about what his Lordship said about a cable across the North Pacific to Japan and China, and there is a proposal for the cable that laying of such a cable, and a

made without any Government might be

a commercial enter- assistance, purely as prise.

Chairman.

2388. Would it, or would it not, have landing- stations on British soil?-The scheme that I have heard of, if Canada were prepared to allow it, might have a landing-place on Canadian territory.

2389. And from there it will go to?-To Honolulu,

2390. And have you any reason for supposing that the United States would allow any cable to land at Honolulu which was not an American cable?--I think that is just the point on which the schemes to which your Lordship referred have fallen to the ground, that there is a contention

30 November 1896.]

Chairman-continued.

149

Mr. LAMB.

in America as to whether the ne set of people or the other shall be allowed to land the cable at Honolulu.

2391-2. Which do you think Congress is likely to favour?—I have not the least idea. The scheme which was to have been in British hands was supported by extremely influential people in the United States,

2393. Assuming a rable to be made across the Pacific, would you prefer that it was in American hands or in British hands?-Other things being equal, in British hands, certainly,

2394. And, therefore, supposing you had real reason to believe that this cable, if not made by British interests or British Governments, would be made by foreign interests, by foreign Governmente, you would Bay, "Then let us have the British cable"?-I am not sure that I should say that, if it involved the financial support of the British Government.

2395. You would rather see a cable across the Pacific going to Japan and China and to Australia respectively entirely in foreign hands than you would see a British cable in British hands if it was subsidised by the British Govern- ment? Well, I would rather put my answer in this way that I doubt whether the British Government would be justified in subsidising the cable across the Pacific in order to prevent a foreigner from laying a cable, but of course I would prefer that the whole enterprise, if it is carried out, should be in the hands of the British.

Mr. Jones.

2396. As a point of fact, you would not desire to see the British Government incur any financial responsibility rather than that it should be in foreign handa?-I think that is the tendency of my evidence.

Chairman.

2397. I want to go on to another point. Suppose such a cable laid; a message sent from London to Australia (I am assuming that it

goes from Vancouver by an all-British route), how would it go from London to Vancouver by an all-British route?-I do not know whether that map

would be of any use to you; that is a map of the Atlantic cables and the land lines in this country which are worked in connection with them. (Map put in.) In answer to your Lord. ship's question, I propose to show by what route messages might be transmitted through the pro- posed new route.

Mr. Gillies.

2398. Which do you mean?—The proposed new route by the Pacific.

2399. Not the one we are now considering?— Yes.

2400. Number 1?-I understand your Lord- ship's question to be this: that if a Pacific cable were laid, in what way would the messages go across the Atlantic and across America to Van-

couver.

Chairman.

[Continued.

2401. That is the point?-And I now propose to state that. They might be transmitted by the Anglo-American Telegraph Company's cables from England to Hearts Content, and thence to Sydney.

Mr. Jones.

2402. Hearts Content in Newfoundland ?— Hearts Content in Newfoundland, and Sydney in Cape Breton, then by the Western Union Telegraph Company's system through Sackville (New Brunswick), to Montreal; the Western Union Telegraph Company being a Company of the United States.

Chairman.

2403. And by what line would it go from Halifax to Montreal ?-On this line it would not go to Halifax. It would go to Hearts Content in Newfoundland, and thence it would go to Sydney in Cape Breton, still by the line of the Anglo-American Telecompany, which is a British Company.

from Sydney, it would go by the Western Union Telegraph Company's system through Sackville (New Brunswick) to Montreal.

2404. Well, my point is, where does the line from Sackville to Montreal go. Is it through

United States territory, or through Canada ?— Through Canada; but a system which is leased to the Western Union Telegraph Company, and worked by them.

2405. The wire is on British soil ?-On British Boil.

2406. But the owners are American ?That is so, practically. Then at Montreal it would go into the hands of the Canadian Pacific Railway Com- and in their hands it would travel to pany, Vancouver. The system between Sydney and Montreal is really the property of the Great Northern and Western Telegraph Company of Canada, but it is leased to and worked by the Western Union Telegraph Company of the United States. Another route would be by one of the Pool Companies, that is any one of the following three companies: the Anglo-American, the Direct United States and the Western Union Telegraph Company of America (who own two of the cables across the Atlantic) and this route would be by one of the Pool Companies across the Atlantic, through Canada to Detroit, and then by the lines of the Western Union Telegraph Company to Scattle, where the message would be trans- ferred to the Pacific Postal Telegraph Company, who would carry it into British Columbia.

pass

to

2407. And that line would go actually through United States territory ?-That would; by these routes it will be seen that the messages would a foreign telegraph company: the Western Union. As an alternative, telegramis might be transmitted by the cables of the Com- mercial Cable Company to Canso, and by the land lines of the Canadian Pacific Railway from Canso to Vancouver. In this case the message would go across the Atlantic by a foreign cable, and would then pass into the hands of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

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