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C.O. 885

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ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

23 November 1896.]

Mr. TAYLOR.

Mr. Murray-continued. could last longer?-Without repaire, or with 'repairs?

1135. Well, either way. The question is rather, is it not, as to the possibility of epairing it at all after a certain time; at least, I gathered that from your answer?-It is; but it is matter of opinion only; one has no facts of a cable of that depth to form an opinion on; there is nothing existing, or which has existed long enough in any thing like that depth.

1136. And even with the experience of the Atlantic cables, you do not know much more about it?—No, the deepest water I know there is about 2,400 fathomis.

1137. What guarantee should you recommend the owner of a cable to require from his manu- facturer; what guarantee of time ?-I do not think there is much good in it being over six months.

was

cable

1138. I thought you said just now that three years would be too little Too little: I saying that in reference to taking three years' guarantee instead of soundings. Soundings I Consider absolutely essential, but if a survives six months, a deep-water cable, I do not think there is any chance of it going wrong or requiring any repair for many years; at present only one month is allowed,

1139. That is the ordinary allowance?—Yes; the contractor has to maintain the cable for 30 days, 1140. Might one reasonably assume that if it got over the first six months it would be fairly

Bafe 7-I think so.

1141. And would not be very likely to de- velop laults which could have been avoided in manufacture?--I do not think it is at all likely.

1142. In fact all the dangers after the first six months would come from the nature of the bottom and not from the nature of the cable- I think so, or as I say from catastrophes. I do not know whether there is any volcanic action which has to be taken into account.

1143. Do you think there has been much im- provement in the manufacture of cables in the last few years?-Not in the last few years; I do not think anything very startling. I think they have got a very good type now.

1144. Would not that last Atlantic cable that was laid be more durable, for instance, than the 1873 one? We hope so, of course, but only time can prove.

1145. Do you not consider, for instance, that its protecting coverings and its manufacture, generally, have very much improved?—Yes.

1146. And would be very much better than the old one?-I think the 1880 cable was one of the best of that group of cables.

1147. The 1880? But of course contractors much. Messrs. Siemens now alwayslay differ

very a close wire cable in the Atlantic; the Telegraph Maintenance and Construction Company always This tape lay each wire individually taped.

is compounded, and I believe contains gutta- percha to a certain extent. They believe in each wire being individually protected, as well as the outside of the whole cable.

1148. Which gives the best results? They are both too recent to say, but there is no

23 November 1896.]

Continued.

Mr. Murray-continued. doubt that the manufacture has improved. The I am 1865 cable gave out in 1873, eight years.

The first one talking of the Atlantic cables.

that there was such a fuss about gave out in 1873. eight years. The 1866 cable gave out in 1874. There was about 100,000. spent in trying to repair those, without any success. the 1869 cable, which lasted over 20 years.... about 23 years; the 1873 cable, which has never given trouble at all, the 1874 cable had to be repaired when it was twenty years old in deep water. Those are very nearly all the facts that one has got to draw inferences from.

Then came

1149. You would not like to infer, then, that the latest laid cable had a much longer prospect of life before it than the 1873 cable, say ?-No, I should not; not much longer.

1150. The whole question of its life depends on the value of its protecting coveringa, I take it ?--I do not go 28 far as that I think most depends on good laying and a goodl bottom.

1151. Yes. I was going rather to the point of the construction of the cable than its use; with an adequate covering it would last for ever, of course That cable would not avoid chafo-aus- pension and chafe, not with the finest cable that you could make.

1152. And how long is it before the danger of suspension would begin to show itself on the condition of the cable?-In a year or two.

It

might be five or six years. I have no doubt

these Atlantic cables-these older ones-broke from suspension.

1153. But at any rate it would not take more than six or seven years?-It might take any time. It would depend on the badness of the

case.

1154. The core of the cable, of course, does not deteriorate at all?-Not at all.

1155. Does the insulator deteriorate ?- Not at all.

1156. Are there many varieties of insulators, or are they all made in the same way!--All Each manu- deep-water cables are the same. facturer has his own peculiarities in making.

1157. In making the gutta-percha?—Yes; in mixing his gums." I think you see them in the Produce price lists varying from 3d, to 4s. 6d. a pound. The contractors do not let the engineers know much about that. That is a dead secret We to everybody how they mix their gums. know they are mixtures, but how much threepenny and how much at 4s. 6d, there is in them we do not know.

1157. What test do you apply to them ?—The test of insulation and general behaviour.

1158. You do not analyse the insulator?-No. 1159. You merely judge by its results ?—That is all. High insulation used to be the great object; now we like to avoid it.

1160. To avoid high insulation ?--Yes; the cheaper the gum the higher the insulation as a rule.

1161. Then it would not be necessary to say anything in the specification about the compusi- tion of the insulator; you would merely specify for a certain weight?--I have never known any- thing else laid down.

Mr. TAYLOR,

Mr. Murray-continued. 1162. Merely the weight?-Merely the weight. Of course the electrical specification, the capacity, must be so much-the electrostatic capacity it is called that is the main point that speed depends on, and the insulation between certain limits I should specify. It must not be below so much. It should not be above so much.

H

Sir Donald Smith,

1163. What survey do you consider ought to be required of a contractor before laying a cable: what, in your opinion, would be a suffi ciently exact survey; that is, what number of soundings in a space of a mile or any given space would you consider sufficient?—I should advise 10 miles apart.

1164. You think that by having a survey not more than 10 miles apart, you would be able to avoid in a great measure sharp peaks or corals -1 think so. Of course if one of those soundings showed suspicious grounds you would naturally survey round that much more nearly.

1165. But as a whole would consider

you soundings about every 10 miles sufficient?— Yes.

1166. But how many soundings could they do in a day -You would do seven to eight a day.

1167. So that you could really have soundings over 70 to 80 miles in a day ?—Yes, that is so.

1168. Sufficiently correct for the purpose, as you believe?I think so; that is my opinion.

1169. You, I think, stated that there has been no very great improvement within the last few years in the manufacture or composition of cables. May I ask you what was the compʊ- sition of the first cable across the Atlantic, and of the last, which, I think, is the Commercial Cable Company's?—Not of the core?

1170. Well, of the cable altogether ?-Of the cable altogether?

1171. And the proportions of copper say, and of gutta-percha?—I cannot tell you about the Commercial, I was not engineer to it, but I can tell you roughly what it is. I think it was 550 lbs. of copper and 320 or 330 lbs. of, gutta- percha. I can easily let you have it.

1172. Would that represent what was in the first Atlantic cable; in the 1865, 1866 cables; or other early cables -Oh, no. The 1865, 1866 cables had 300 lbs. of copper and 400 lbs. of gutta- percha.

1173. You would consider that to be not so good as the proportions you now speak of, of 550 and 350? It was as good in one sense, but it is very much more expensive.

1174. More expensive ?—It is not a scientific distribution of the material.

1175. So that, in your opinion, it is not necessary to choose one of so expensive a character? That is so. Speaking now of the core only.

1176. The question of the cure?—Yes. As regards protection, those cables consisted of ten wires, each surrounded by a strand, of manilla in one cable, and in the other cable of hemp, and no other protection than that.

[Continued.

Sir Donald Smith-continued. 1177. Are you aware what caused the break- age of the first Atlantic cable, within a com- paratively short time?-I take it that it must have been suspension; no, I do not think any one knows the real cause; it was never proved.

1178. Not the actual, the supposed cause?—— The supposed cause, I think, was suspension.

1179. And 16 to the cost of the earlier cables and those of the present day, taking the last as an example, what would be the relative prices per mile?-As a matter of fact, the contractors got very much higher prices in the old days to what they can get now, so that these old cables cost a very great deal more per wile than the new ones.

1180. But what would be the actual cost of a cable now as compared with what it was then? -The actual cost to the customer?

1181. Looking to the material and looking to present prices for labour.-You mean to the customer, nut to the contractor?

1182. To the contractor.-I could work it out; I cannot tell you. For instance, you would have to find what the price of gutta-percha was in 1865, also the price of what it is in 1894, say. Of course, it has gone up enormously. On the other hand, they do not use so much of it.

1183. Of course, as to the price, that is to the purchaser,-the element of competition counts for very much? The element of competition counts very much, and there is not the same mystery about cable-laying there used to be, so contractors do not get approximately the same prices. I think Messrs. Siemens for the Direct Cable got 1,200,000. That is only what we should call small core nowadays; 2,500 miles in length.

Mr. Gillies.

1184. There is one point rather important, and it is important from a practical point of view. There have been great differences of opinion as to the completeness or otherwise of the survey that has been made for this line, and you lay great stress and importance on the survey being reasonably complete?—Yes.

1185. And you indicated that it might be well that the contractor, whoever he might be, would be under the obligation to complete the necessary surveys, to do his work well? Yes.

1186. And that you are of opinion that, if necessary, they should be made to do so by the contract? Yes.

1187. How would you be able to set that out, that he should be responsible for the surveys unless you had some one to control him, and to insist where certain surveys should be made ?- Of course, whoever you employed to look after the cable, that would be part of his work to see that the contractor carried out his contract, what- ever it might be

1188. Or would you give to some one, as is not infrequently done, high professional officers sometimes, would you give them a discretion to compel certain work to be done that they think

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