CO885-(20-21) — Page 609

21

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

21 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

a

Mr. FAGAN: Is it not possible that they do not come from Trinidad now because they have been nearly all destroyed?—A. There never were many there. The main source of supply is Colombia, and they must be very plentiful there or we should not get them, but we do get them in plenty when they are wanted.

CHAIRMAN: May I read you a paragraph from the Blue-book" Further Corres- pondence relating to the Preservation of Wild Animals in Africa," which was published by the Colonial Office last year, and somehow or other there gets into it the evidence of Sir Harry Johnston on the subject of birds in Jamaica, and he says that he has been about Jamaica with the Governor" and I have come across negro gunners in all parts on the look-out for all types of birds, simply for the sake of selling their plumage. The result of their destruction has been an enormous increase in the number of grass-ticks. Very soon, in spite of all those who are anxious to hold up Jamaica as a tourist resort, it will be made known, I am sure, that if you leave the macadamised roads you will be attacked by the grass-ticks."- A. What date is that?

Q. 1910.-A. We never got any humming-birds at all from Jamaica. Q. Do you get anything from Jamaica-A. Not humming-birds, anyway; I do not think we get anything from Jamaica.

Q. There is no export to this country-A. No, and has not been for years, and at Trinidad, which we have mentioned already, they have regulated the export of birds. We have not had any skins from Trinidad for a long time, scarcely any at all: just, perhaps, a dozen or two have come at intervals, but no supply at all.

Mr. FAGAN: Is not that because, as you have just said, there are very few there ! - A. No, it is a Government prohibition.

Mr. OGILVIE-GRANT : Does the new Australian law in Papua affect the export of birds of paradise from there —A. I do not know that at all; they do not come from Australia.

Q. You say that the law in Trinidad has operated so that you do not get things from there now, and my last question referred to getting anything out of British New Guinea, which is now under Queensland, and strictly protected.-A. We get almost no birds of paradise from British New Guinea.

Q. From Australian New Guinea that is to say.

CHAIRMAN: You get them from Dutch New Guinea ?—A. We get scarcely any English skins from New Guinea.

Mr. OGILVIE-GRANT: Does not Paradisea raggiana come occasionally !—A. No, but we still get a few from Dutch New Guinea.*

Q. Do you get any Lophorina minor?—A. Yes, but not from English New Guinea,

many;

From the other parts-A. A few from German New Guinea, but not they are almost all from Dutch New Guinea.

Q. You mean they come out anywhere through Dutch New Guinea —A. They are from Dutch territory; by the preparation they are Dutch skins.

CHAIRMAN: Your evidence seems to me to be particularly conclusive and emphatic summed up it really is that there is no raison d'être for this Bill of Mr. Alden's at all—-A. (Mr. Joseph): That is so.

Q. And that there is no bird which comes to this country for trade purposes which is in any danger of extinction A. Yes.

Q. That disposes of Mr. Alden's Bill according to your contention, and if you go to the Australian suggestion your belief is that it would simply lead to the issue of bogus certificates of origin and smuggling, that there would be no diminu tion in the export of birds from those countries, and consequently no diminution in the destruction of the lives of those birds in those countries? A. Yes, that is so.

Q. That is perfectly clear and emphatic. Now, I do want, if I may, to ask Mr. Downham one or two questions about his summary of the objections to Mr. Alden's Bill at the end of his book, page 119. Your figures are that £3,000,000 sterling of feathers are imported into the country, and of those £1,000,000 are goods which the Bill intends to prohibit. I fancy the supporters of the Bill (I am only quoting from memory) would say that the goods to which their Bill applies amount only to about £100,000!—A. (Mr. Downham): Yes. You will find an ex- planation of the use they have made of the figures in Appendix III. as to the raw fancy feathers which come direct from the countries of origin into this country. They take no account at all of the raw feathers that come into this country via Germany

•

[The species is confined to British New Guinea, east of the Fly River,—W. R. O.-G.]

or Holland or France. They do not take any account of manufactured goods or partly manufactured goods; they have simply taken the figures, which are about £100,000.

Q. What becomes of the feathers which come into this country? Are a lot of them re-exported again to he manufactured in other countries?-A. Yes, but they are dealt with here in a business manner; that is to say, it represents a turn- over in the trade.

Q. They are marketed here but there is no manufacturing process goes on here A. Oh yes.

Q. With regard to those that are re-exported to be dressed in other countries you do nothing? A. Practically nothing.

Q. What proportion of the feathers that come into this country are re-exported should

you say roughly —A. After having been dealt with in a business manner ? These figures do not include any transhipments of raw goods; these are figures entered at the Board of Trade.

Q. They are bought and sold-A. Yes.

Q: And sold to be dressed and manufactured largely in foreign countries --- A. Yes.

Q. A certain proportion only being dressed and manufactured in this country! -A. Yes.

Q. Roughly speaking is it 50 per cent. ?—A. I raw goods that come from tropical countries are manufactured abroad, but it does

suppose 80

per cent. of all the not follow that only £20,000 of this £100,000 worth is used in this country.

Q. When you refer to thousands of British workpeople who would be thrown out of employment, it naturally does not mean the people who are employed in the dressing and manufacturing of the feathers; you refer to the dockers who unload the ships --A. The accessory trades. (Mr. Dunstall): Mostly the manufacturing people.

Q. Manufacturing what-A. The parts of the goods that remain in this country and which are manufactured.

Q. And you cannot get it nearer than thousands—A. These raw fancy feathers which come into this country really do not represent the (Mr. Downham): manufacturing industry in this country; they have to be worked up with other goods. (Mr.“ Dunstall): Mr. Joseph could tell you something about that. (Mr. Joseph): We are manufacturers: these other gentlemen are merchants. tell you that taking last year's work, for every £10 worth of the foreign birds, we used with them probably £50 or £60 worth of domestic plumage.

I can

Q. Now, I want for a moment to talk about something quite different. This gentleman who has just come into the room is Mr. Goodfellow, who comes from New Guinea.-A. (Mr. Goodfellow): Direct from New Guinea.

Q. You have been there frequently?-Every year since 1903.

Q. To Dutch New Guinea ?—A.

All parts, but least to German New Guinea. What is your view as to the birds of paradise there? Are they decreasing It struck me on all my subsequent visits since I first went there

in number-A.

that they are considerably, some species particularly so.

years.

Q. What evidence have you of that ?—-A. I see stress is laid on the point that the same number of skins come through now as in former years, but that is due to the fact that up to a few years ago Dutch New Guinea particularly was very little opened up, and then the collectors and shooters could get them near at hand. Now they have to go further and further afield into quite unexplored regions to get the skins to keep up the numbers; so that if for a few years about the same number of skins come through, I think. that is no evidence that the birds are not decreasing; it is simply that new regions not touched hitherto have been opened up in recent I think the proof of that is that the Dutch companies' steamers which go round the New Guinea ports call at ports now to collect the skins which two or three years ago they did not go to at all; the trade has simply left those former places practically, and the shooters have to go much further afield to get their skins. There are districts which I visited in earlier years and practically you would find no birds of paradise round there now at all. I have been in constant touch with the Malay and native Papuan shooters, and I know for a fact that they have to go away to considerable distances to get new unexplored regions, or regions not known at all a few years ago.

Q. Would you not anticipate that that would have an effect on the price?— A. No. I should think not, because the price of the skins fluctuates according to