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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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21 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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MEETING OF WEDNESDAY, MARCH 1st, 1911.

Mr. C. F. Downham,

Mr. L. JOSEPH,

Mr. ERNEST FIGGIS,

Mr. G. K. DUNSTALL,

Mr. C. E. Town (Assistant Secretary), and

Mr. W. J. EALES (Clerk-in-charge),

Representing the Textile Trade Section of the London Chamber of l'ommerce-— called and examined.

Mr. Town: Gentlemen, as representing officially the London Chamber of Com- merce, I am here to introduce to you the delegates of the Plumage Committee of the Textile Trade Section of the Chamber. The gentlemen here present are Mr. L. Joseph, who represents L. Joseph and Sons; Mr. C. F. Downham, of Sciama and Company; Mr. Ernest Figgis, of S. Figgis and Company; and Mr. G. K. Dunstall, of Red Cross Street. In introducing these gentlemen I desire to thank you for affording us the opportunity of this Conference, and to suggest that whatever the outcome of our discussions to-day may be, no further action may be taken without at least giving the Committee of the Chamber facilities for further representations if necessary. There are three main objects to-day which we are seeking in this Conference. The first is to offer opposition to any drastic restrictions on the export from the Colonies of plumage birds-unless, of course, this Conference can prove to the trade that such export is likely to lead to wholesale reduction or extermination. Secondly, to urge that inasmuch as the most favoured plumage birds are already preserved the case that is alleged of wholesale destruction is not really founded upon facts. These gentlemen can prove that. that all ill-considered and wholesale restrictions would involve this trade, a We desire to prove also, in the third case, most important trade, in a very great loss. clearly before you, gentlemen; and on these points the delegates no doubt will be I hope you will keep these three points able to offer you very much practical information.

CHAIRMAN: Before we go further, I understand that you are an Assistant Secretary of the London Chamber of Commerce --A. Yes.

Q. Has this matter ever been discussed by the Chamber of Commerce !-- A. Very fully, both by the Textile Trade and also by the Sub-Committee which these gentlemen represent, and by the Chamber generally.

I do

Q. Is there any report of the decision of the Chamber generally --A. not think more than the information we supplied you with; I think it has been sent on. (Mr. Eules): The report of the Textile Trade Section Meeting is submitted to the Council of the Chamber at each of its monthly meetings.

Q. That is the normal procedure, that when you have a section of your Chamber sitting in connection with any particular trade or industry, its report is sent to the Council Meeting —A. Yes. (Mr. Town); The Chamber has 43 trade sections, all of which follow that procedure.

Q. I think I ought to make it clear to you, gentlemen, before we go any further, that this Conference has now been sitting some time, and that its method of pro- cedure has been to examine the views of various gentlemen, for instance the pro- moters of this Bill of Lord Avebury's, which is the raison d'être of the Conference; and, naturally, as the opposition to the Bill has been conducted practically entirely, I think, on your behalf, the members of the Conference thought it would be right to invite you, and that we could not come to a decision without hearing your views on the subject. With regard to the undertaking which you ask, naturally, if the evidence you are able to give us to-day is not sufficient to enable as to draw up the report which we shall submit, we shall ask you to be kind enough to give us more information. that. (To Mr. Joseph.) I understand that you desire first to make a statement to I cannot give an undertaking further than the Conference? A. Yes. I would like to say that we find ourselves rather at a dis- advantage in meeting you to-day, because we have not had any official information as to why the Conference was called. The Chairman has just mentioned that it was on account of Lord Avebury's Bill, but this is the first time we have heard that it was so. We have simply gathered from the Press that a Conference was being called with the idea of bringing forward a system for checking the indiscriminate slaughter of wild birds in various parts of the British Empire. From this Press information we were led to infer that allegations had been made that there

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was an indiscriminate slaughter of wild birds in the British Empire, and what we wanted to do chiefly was to ask you what wild birds were alleged to be indis- criminately slaughtered. Where does the slaughter take place and on what informa- tion is the charge founded? What evidence has been placed before you in support of this? Of course, unless you can give us something to go upon in the way of the evidence that has been placed before you, we find ourselves in the position of having to answer a charge without knowing the details of it. impossible to generalise on the destruction of birds. The question really must be In a case like this it is quite discussed in detail if we are to arrive at any proper decision in the matter. ever wants actual information must naturally give the points on which they want Who- information. What we are here for is to vindicate our trade in feathers, and if we are to do it we should be placed in unreserved possession of the evidence there is against us. I want to press this point because you have mentioned Lord Avebury's Bill, but the trade did not consider that they had an unprejudiced hearing at the inquiry that was carried on in connection with it, and we are relying on this Confer- ence to give us a really fair hearing on all the questions.

Q. What was the reason for the hearing you had at the House of Lords Committee not being satisfactory ?—A. were either backing the Bill or were Presidents of the Societies that were introducing Because a majority of the Committee there the Bill.

Q. The majority of the Committee were in favour of the Bill, you say?— A. Exactly; not only that but they were the people actually responsible for it, being Presidents of the Bird Protection Societies. I would like to point out, too, that as far as our correspondence with you has been concerned there has been no secrecy on our side; we want to place the whole matter clearly before you, and that is why in pressing for some idea of the evidence that you have already taken, we quite fail to see why there should be any secrecy in the matter. We consider that

the matter should be quite open to discussion on all points. We really want to discuss the matter rather than to offer evidence.

Q. I must say I do not appreciate your difficulty. A Bill has been promoted in Parliament, and an agitation accompanies that Bill for the protection of birds coming into this country. You, as gentlemen interested in the feather trade, object to the Bill; you say that your interests are at stake; you say that there is no raison d'etre for the Bill; and surely, therefore, you can only assist us by showing us how your trade is affected and showing us why you believe the passage of this Bill would be dangerous to the trade of London and prejudicial to the real interests of this country. The information has to be delivered by you, not by us to you?- A. Exactly; but this is the first we knew that we were here to discuss the Bill in any form.

We understood that this Conference was on the question of the destruc- tion of birds in the British Colonies; we understood that it was entirely colonial. We do not wish to limit the discussion to that in any way as far as we are concerned, but that is what we understood all the way through. As I told you, we are quite at a loss to know why the Conference is sitting.

Q. The Conference is sitting to consider the protection of birds and the possi- bilities of preventing the import into this country of plumage birds. The Bill known as Lord Avebury's Bill is one suggestion before us. You have circularised to the Members of the Committee and, I think, now to the Members of the House of Commons, the book by Mr. Downham on the subject of the feather trade?—- A. Yes.

Q. The very writing of that book clearly shows what your section of the Chamber is apprehensive of. He deals most fully, carefully, and ably with all the proposals that have been or are now before the country-A. Exactly.

A.

Q. And it is really with the proposals with which Mr. Downham deals that this Conference is concerned, not with any particular one but with all of them.-- We did not expect to be called upon to discuss the importations from foreign countries with the representatives of the Colonies. Of course, I am not saying we are not prepared to do it, but we thought really it was on the question of Colonial birds that this Conference was sitting. We are mistaken in that.

Q. This Conference consists of representatives of the India Office, of the Colonial Office, of the Board of Trade, and of the British Museum of Natural History, and our Terms of Reference are in no way limited to the Colonies. If, of course, you are unable to give us any information or such information as you would like to give us about birds outside the Colonies because you are not prepared to do so, that is a question for adjournment.-A. We are prepared.