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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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188

30 October 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. FOSTER.

up documents, and bring in information that we may require, add so on

4622. But you do not find any difficulty in getting all the information with regard to shipping which you require at Westminster-you get it just as easily ab if you were in the City-Not the slightest difficulty; you understand it takes a little longer to get from here to the City, but still we do such a tremendous lot over the telephone. With a big thing, a special rate, or anything of that kind, we send a man on the Underground, and it does not take long-a quarter of an hour or so to the City.

4823. (Chairman.) How many clerks would you have in the City each morning on the shipping work?- One, really, and, as a matter of fact, he is quite a junior, not a highly paid man at all. The information is all watched and checked; we know practically what he should bring back, and if it does not suit us we make other arrangements to get it. The telephone helps us a tremendous lot.

4624. Do you get any very large parcels. 500 or 1,000 cases? What would be the largest?—The largest . I have had was 500 or 600 tons, I think,

4625. (Sir Ralph Moor.) How do you arrange with regard to your shipments, then, from outside ports- from Liverpool, Glasgow, and so forth? If we find that the owners of the line charge an agency fee we see if we can beat it by employing an outsider then, and that is the only time we employ agents. We do employ agents in Liverpool, because we find it pays us to do it.

4626. When you are shipping from an outside port, you leave the shipment to them?—Yes.

V

4627. When they charge you an outside fee, you try to beat them by an agent 7-Yes.

4628. (Chairman.) Do you ship much from ports outside London ?-Fair quantities to the West Coast of Africa, from Liverpool, for instance, and from Southampton to the Cape. A deal of it goes from London to India, the Straits, China, and so on. Wo ship all over the globe to all ports, as a matter of fact, but we find that shipments to our own possessions are far simpler than to others. For instance, in shipping to the South American and Central American States, the routine work, the invoices, and the inform ation required, is very technical and very varied.

4629. (Mr. Bailey.) Can you give us any idea of the amount of business you do the value of the packages you ship-I can do so; but for the purpose of coin- parison I do not think it would be much use to you, because the cost of clerkage is not governed by the value of the goods shipped so much as the number of consignments that value represents.

4630. I think the Committee quite understands that, but it would be very interesting to have the informa- tion in answer to the question ?—It amounts to a large figure.

4631. Could you give us the number of consignments at all the number of packages?—I could not as a matter of fact; we have not made it out. As to the number of consignments, as a very rough figure, per- haps 4,000 approximately in the course of the year. These consignments would be much smaller than the Crown Agents' consignments.

4632. (Chairman.) Yours would be to individuals as a rule, and not to firms, would they?—At times to firms, but chiefly to individuals, and our own depôts in India, Bombay, and Calcutta, for instance. Then you see the routine in connection with a small ship- ment is almost the same as in a large one.

4633. (Mr. Bailey.) Have you any idea what you save now, by doing business with your own staff, as compared with the cost of it through shipping agents? -That is difficult question to answer, because if we put the business out to agents to-morrow those agents would make as much as they possibly could out of it, and it is a question as to what raten I could get at the present day. It does not follow they would charge, for instance, the same as they did in years gone by. We cannot see the use of a middleman at all, so we do not study the point.

1634. You are satisfied that it is for the general con- venience of the business to do it as you do it now?-- There is absolutely no question about that—a saving both in time and money.

4635. (Sir Ralph Moor.) It enables you to give greater despatch —Yes, we gain all round.

1636. (Chairman.) In your shipping department du you have anything to do with hurrying the goods up: -Yes, a lot.

1637. (Mr. Bailey.) But you have more than mere shipping to do in your department 7-Yes, personally I look after the whole of the transport; I have 100 men on my staff, and really if we put our shipping out to-morrow it would only displace about 16 of that number.

4638. Those 10 are practically all you have on ship. ping pure and simple? That is sending the goods down to the boats, making out and taking up the bills of lading, clearing at Customs, and advising it for ward, but in addition to that in the department we receive the whole of the orders, we purchase of the departments, the whole of the goods are collected together, and we arrange for packing and shipment. But this is altogether apart from shipping.

4639, (Chairman.) You call it a transport depart- ment, but you might almost call it the export depart ment?—It is called the export department, but in ad- dition I look after the home transport as well.

4610. (Mr. Harris.) What do you mean when you say you purchase of departments-that you draw from the other departments, say the stationery, the dry goods and so forth-Yes, we draw from them and bring the whole together, check it, and arrange ship- ment and invoice it.

4611. There are book entries, therefore, as against you in the other departments?-Yes, and I can tell you what the export part of the business amounts to and so on.

4842. (Chairman.) The sixteen you have mentioned, I take it, would not have much to do with hurrying up the goods, would they ?-No, they would look after the shipment pure and simple.

4143. (3fr. Bailey.) Do you conceive you are able to get as much information about freights and the general conduct of shipping business as if you were shipping agents yourselves?-Quite; so far as rates are concerned they are governed entirely by the quan- tities.

4614, Do you have very much trouble in getting quotations for freights?-Oh no; of course we have to watch these things. We do not always pay what happens to be quoted for a start.

4645. Do you have anything to do with the insur ance of freight?-Yes, we look after the insurance as well.

4646. That would be done by that staff of 10 men ?—— Yes.

4047. Do you have adjustments to make afterwards very often with regard to insurance where there has been loss 7-Yes, claims and so on are put through.

4648. As to the supervision of the work at the docks, and so on, do you find it necessary to have men in constant attendance to give directions as to the methods of stowage of any particular parcels?- Not at all.

4640. You have occasionally some very valuable and very delicate shipments to make?--Yes. We look at it from this point of view; we pay the steamship' company the rate of freight and we hand the good- to them in good condition; we pay them to deliver in like good condition at the other side, and if they do not do so we should claim upon them. They do not want us to show them how to stow the goods, and, as a matter of fact, we should not know. The steve- dores look after that.

4650. It is possible that those engaged in the stowage might resent advice?—I think it is highly probable.

4651, (fr. Harria.) As a matter of fact have you had any claims against steamship companies within

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. FOSTER.

recent years?We have been very fortunate for a long time; we have had minor claims in Bombay and Calcutta, and the companies meet us fairly; as far as marine losses are concerned we come under insur. ance policies.

4652. (Mr. Bailey.) Who transports your goods to the docks in London? Do you send them in your own vans?-Partly, and we employ a contractor as well to run the goods down, and lighter also. We have a wharf at Belgrave Dock on the river near here, and the big lots we lighter down.

4653. When you send goods down by a contractor's van how do you insure they are delivered to the ship in proper condition?-Our proof is the signature which the dock company gives, In good order and condition."

4654. Do you make out your bills of lading?—Yes. 4658-6. (Mr. Harris.) You said in one of your replies to the Chairman that it is the shipping clerk's busi. ness to find a ship. Do you mind explaining what you mean?-For instance, we will say there is a consignment going to Beyrout; he turns up and finds the next ship going to Beyrout, and makes his ship. ment accordingly.

1057. Does he refer to you for approval, or do you throw that on the young man?-We leave it to him; they are all properly trained.

4658. (Mr. Bailey.) His training would tell him when it would be necessary to refer to you?--Yes; he would come to me more particularly in connection with big lots and special circumstances.

4659, (Mr. Harris.) I think Mr. Bailey has drawn out several of the points I have noted, but as regards goods from the country do you draw any business directly from the factories for shipment?—Yes; they prepare the goods for shipment and advise us when ready, and we keep in touch with them and see they do not delay the goods. Immediately they are ready we tell them where to put them.

4660. Either to the out port or to London?-At the port from which we should be shipping.

4661. (Chairman.) When you are having the goods sent direct from the factory would you get your quotations f.o.b. 7-Whenever we can; of course, there would be instances where they are not f.o.b., but when we.can buy f.o.b. we do so,

4002. You would not have them through the Bel- grave Wharf? No, we should not handle them; we cannot afford to touch them. They go straight from the supplier to the ship.

4063. (M. Harris.) What do you mean when you say you cannot afford to touch them?-It would cost us something to handle the goods, and it would be a superfluous handling.

4664. And the risk you run you find is not a material risk?—No, because it is bought to sample, and if it turned out not right on the other side we should want to know the reason, and it would not pay the suppliers to run the risk of having goods thrown on their hands.

189

[30 October 1908.

4665. (fr. Bailey.) Supposing you order goods in Leeds and these have to go down to get across to Hull, and you buy them f.o.b., should you think it part of your duty to look after the railway company and see that they forwarded these gods expeditiously from Leeds to Hull in such a case?-In such a case as that I should hold the supplier responsible for carrying out my instructions, and it is his interest to do so." He wants another order. We hold the railway company responsible for delivery in as good condition as

received.

4066. (Mr. Harris.) Who fights any delay with the railway company?-We do it ourselves or the sup- pliers; if we think it better for the suppliers to take the matter up we allow them to do so; otherwise we do it ourselves.

4667. When you find there has been trouble you de- cide which is the best way of getting at them ?—Yes.

4668. Do you have much trouble with the companies as a matter of fact?-Not much trouble; little things go wrong now and again, but they are ordinary com.

mon errors.

4609. As a rule they are prepared to meet you in a fair way?—Yes, they will always meet a big shipper.

1670. I suppose you have a large number of quite small consignments for abroad 7-Yes.

4071. Would you mind telling the sub-committee how you deal with those the small packages that are really ordered daily at all stores ?-We get very small things at times, and we take all means of transport into consideration, that is letter post, book post, par- cel post, parcel tickets on the steamers, or tonnage rates.

4672. In many cases you have quite small separate packages 7-Yes.

1879. (Mr. Bailey.) In fact, that adds to the cost of your department-the large number of small parcels you have? Yes.

4674, (Mr. Harris.) Do you find great difficulty in finding freight to out-of-the-way ports?-No.

4675. Occasionally it has been suggested to us that you get a demand for a port that has never been heard of before; could you manage to send with convenience to Timbuctoo?—Yes, we have had orders for Timbue- too. We have never been done yet. We have always run the goods wherever wanted."

4676. Could you give me any idea of what hap pened to the old shipping agents from whom you took your business away? Did you ever follow their sub sequent history -They had a large business at the time; they are bankers, as a matter of fact, and they had this shipping department, and they still run it. 4677. Do you mean as shipping agents to other firms ?--Bankers and shipping agents.

4678. (Mr. Bailey.) I take it the particular people you have in view do their shipping agency largely for private customers? That is so.

4679. People for whom the firm undertake agency work, and who want to send goods abroad?—Yes, they get a lot of the Service work.

The witness withdrew.

Major J. F. H. CARMICHAEL, called and examined.

4630-1. (Chairman.) You have kindly come to tell us something more that we want in connection with the special inquiry we are making into the shipping ar- rangements. We want you to tell us in fair detail what is exactly the process, what is exactly the work done in your office between the time you receive it and when you hand it over to the shipping agents?—That is to say, how we deal with an indent."

4682. How you deal with an indent during the time it is in the Crown Agent's Office?-The indent comes in and either goes to me or my deputy. It is there examined, and wo give any instruction we think necessary, and it goes to the head of the section. The head of the section then goes into it in greater

detail and he separates out the different articles that are required, and he instructs one of the clerks to issue tenders or estimates to certain firms for such and such articles and to other firms for other articles. The tender form is made out and checked by him with a clerk, and it is then typed, as a rule, if it is to go to many contractors. Then it is read over with the original to make sure that the typed copy is correct. We purposely type them, as we conclude that if one copy is correct the rest are correct. They used to have to write them before I came there, and I pointed out the saving of labour by typing. The tenders are issued, and they put at the top of the tender: "Tenders due on such and such a date at