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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

بالسيليسا

Reference :--

6

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

N

176

31 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir E. BLAKE.

than is usual in an officer of such high standing Of course, you must think of what the organisation of the office is that the secretary is appointed really to try and safeguard the position of the Crown Agents. As I explained before, we want to secure that every paper that is of the least importance should go to the Crown Agents, that they shall not be in the dark with regard to anything happening, and, therefore, we appoint a man who has no concern whatever with the actual administrative business of the office to look after that. His most important function is practically to secure us against surprises.

4158. Would not the same purpose be more naturally secured by the Crown Agents having private secre- taries?—It does not matter in the least.

4159. It does matter, to my mind; you put a person nominally at the head of the office, and you take away from him control of every department except tive. You give him the largest salary in the office, and then you say that he has nothing to do with the administration of the office-The position, of course, would be this. The office could be reconstituted just as it is for the Responsible Government agencies if there was one man and a secretary, and the secretary is practically the second man. All the office would be under him in that case; but we have a different organisation. That is what it amounts to.

4160. (Mr. Bailey.) And you think it necessary, do you, on full consideration of the case, to have a man primarily for that purpose, so that you may get all complaints brought to your notice?-I think it essen- tial that we shall have someone who practically looks at all questions from the point of view of the Crown Agents.

4161. As against their staff?-As against the staff; just in the same way as our friends, the Audit Office, are of enormous benefit to us. Instead of resenting the audit I feel they are our best friends, because if anything happens they will call attention to it.

4162. (Sir Albert Spicer.) How far do you consider that your secretary's duties correspond to these three divisions: first, that the secretariat shall take over by degrees all miscellaneous business of the office not strictly appertaining to any other department: is he doing that?-He is doing that.

4163. The second is that the secretariat shall keep a record of all precedents and questions of principle which may arise and be dealt with in the course of business in any department of the office ?--That, I am sorry to say, is not being done.

4164. (Mr. Gibson.) That would necessitate all the work of the various departments passing through him? -All the precedents being sent to him to register-

that is all.

4165. (Sir Albert Spicer.) That has fallen through ?— Yes.

4166. The third is, that doubt may arise as to the proper action to be taken on a particular case, and application should be made to the secretariat for infor- mation as to precedents-Yes.

4167. Has that been carried out? That follows on the other.

4168. Therefore, two and three are not being carried out? They are not.

4169. Simply No.”17--Simply No. 1.

4170. (Mr. Gibson.) Would you think it a preferable arrangement to let the secretary perform the duties of a secretary or an under-secretary of a large office, using the number of Crown Agents by one? That would be an alternative way.

4171. Do you think that would be a preferable · alternative? You are in this difficulty: if you adopt that system I think there might be one Crown Agent, a secretary, and an assistant secretary; but I think our organisation is better, having regard to the enor mous amount of our work. It is far better to have three men than to have one man, or even two.

4172. I would suggest two Crown Agents?-Even two I would object to, because one might fall ill. I think it is rather a dangerous position to have only one Crown Agent.

4173. Just passing to a general question about salaries and recruitment, with regard to your minute about the supplementary clerks, may I take it that in the scheme you are to put before the Committee you will not have varying rates of pay for people recruited from different sources?-No, Lecause that system las broken down; we contemplated that these lads would pass the examination, but as a matter of fact very few of them have done so.

4174. You admit it is impossible to bring people in. coming from various sources, at varying rates of salary? We began doing that, but we have had to abandon it.

4175. I see it is stated in the evidence of some of the witnesses that the posts of the heads, of depart- ments vary in importance?—They vary very much in importance; that is one of the difficulties of having a scale.

4176. Is it the case that they vary so substantially that it is impossible to have one scale that would be applicable to the whole?—I am afraid it would happen if you had a scale that some men would be overpaid and some men underpaid.

4177. I am not referring to the technical heads, such as the Head of the Engineer and Works Department and the head of the engineering inspection branch, who stand in a special category?—Yes, they will always have to be got specially.

4178. Perhaps the chief clerk and accountant might stand somewhat by himself, but taking the other heads. the chief cashier, the head of the Miscellaneous Department, the Registrar of Inscribed Stocks, the head of the Shipping and head of the General Stores, are their duties so varied or different in importance that you could not have one scale applicable to those five persons 7-You might have one scale for those

men.

4179. There are one or two miscellaneous questions, leaving the scales of pay and the method of recruit- ment. With regard to the issue of loans we had some evidence from the Accountant-General of the India Office, describing how they issued their loans through the Bank of England and the rates they paid; they paid £1,250 per £1,000,000 for the issue of a fixed price loan and £825 per £1,000,000 for the issue of a tender loan ?—Yes.

4180. I think you admitted that your rate of per cent.. which works out at £5,000 per £1,000,000, was rather high ?—No, I do not think that was brought before me. The position is this, that our i per cent. is practically per cent. We pay out of that per cent, brokerage on all applications received from banks and brokers, so that it reduces it to very little more than per cent.

4181. I have put to you what I understood from your previous evidence. You were prepared to make a reduction of charge?—I was speaking about the paying-off of loans; there we can afford very substan- tially to reduce the commission if we are given a little more for paying interest which is heavy work.

4182. You have explained that your City office was a very small,affair?-It is merely for the convenience of the Stock Exchange that is all.

4183. It is a permanent office, however, with two men in it7-Wo have three men, and on the account days we send whatever staff is necessary.

4184. What is it precisely that is done there?-Do you know about transfer and stock-keeping? The people write their names in a book, our staff keep the register, and they send day by day to us a record of any transactions, and those are recorded in our registers.

4185. You have various balances from the Colonies in your hands?—Yes.

4186. You have floating balances which you lend out to other Colonies ?—Yes.

4187. With regard to the interest on those balances. the office fund takes these?-No, of course, it goes to the Colony to whom the money belongs.

4188. In every case?--In every case. The only thing

we are entitled to do if a Colony has no funds whatever and comes to us for an overdraft, is to charge Bank

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKB.

rate with a minimum of 8 per cent.; but under our modern system of financing, except in the case of the very smallest Colonies, we always lend the money of one Colony to another if it has any security to pledge, ao as to help the Colony that has the money.

4189. The interest on the overdraft is credited to your office account 7-Yes, but that is a very small matter.

4190. That is derived from the funds of other Colonies?—That is so.

4191. And those Colonies do not get the benefit of it ?-No, but every Colony ought to keep a balance.

4192. On deposit?—No, on current account.

4193. Sufficiently large to make those advances?-So as to cover its transactions. It is a very small thing indeed; we lend the money of the Colonies amongst themselves to such an extent that it is a very negligible amount.

4194. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Have you authority to credit that to your funds?-Quite so.

4195. (Mr. Bailey.) Do I understand that these amounts of interest on overdrafts are really derived from the current balances of the various Colonies - Yes, from the total of our current account, and at one time we had £50,000 of our own in the business.

4196. (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to these balances: you lend money to the City, as you told us?—Yes.

4197. I dare say you noticed Mr. Badock's evidence on that point?—Yes, I did.

4198. Have you any list of banks or firms to whom you lend?—No, we lend to a bank-we think that the much more convenient and better system-and then, of course, the bank lends out the money again. We make the best terms we can.

* 4199. I do not know whether this case has ever hap pened, but assuming any loss occurred in such a loan, has any question arisen as to how the loss would be dealt with? No. In the past we have been authorised to deposit money with the joint stock banks, and I think that that would be unquestionably our answer. We have a general authority to lend out our surplus balances to joint stock banks. We do not speculate in the least; we simply go to the big banks and they are absolutely good.

4200. With regard to the question of including the poundage in calculating the pensions, I take it that in any scheme or system approaching more nearly that of the Civil Service, such emoluments would hardly be included? The objection, of course, to abolishing the poundages is that all these men would expect compen- sation, and if the happy thing happened that the income tax were reduced to sixpence, that item of the poundage would be very much reduced.

4201. Supposing the scales were reviewed and pro- bably increased, it would be possible to make a stipu- lation with regard to that matter?-It would be pos sible, of course.

4202. With regard to the lady clerks, Miss Boddy gave evidence before us, that the ladies are anxious to get pensions under more favourable terme than usual; that is to say, before the expiration of the age of sixty-They all know perfectly well that if at any time a lady's health broke down we should put her on pension at any age, on a medical certificate.

• 11

177

[31 July 1908.

4209. But in any other circumstances?-Under any circumstances, if a lady served us for a time and the medical certificate was to the effect that she was per- manently incapacitated, we should give the pension. If any lady at the age of fifty was to express the desire to go, she would be allowed to go.

4204. On pension?-On pension.

4205. Is there any authority for that?--I believe it is the universal rule where women are employed that they may retire at fifty instead of sixty.

4206. Have the Colonial Office authorised you to make that statement?-No, I do not think that ques- tion has ever been raised.

4207. I fancy Miss Buddy told us that she had been informed by the Crown Agents that the lady clerks would be exempted from the ordinary rule?—I told her that no objection whatever would be raised

4208. Would it not be advisable to get that confirmed by the Colonial Office?-We generally raise these ques- tions on the specific cases.

4200. Is it advisable to issue such a notification in anticipation of a case arising unless you have a general authority ?--You must please remember that the Crown Agents' Office has always been worked on the basis that the Crown Agents have a very wide discretion. It is quite a new departure to have us queried on all these sort of questions.

4210. I thought that since 1900 it had been admitted with regard to pensions granted in the Crown Agents' Office, that the Colonial Office had laid it down that those pensions were to be under Civil Service conditions.

4211. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I think I must try to clear up what I believe to be a misunderstanding. You say, so far as you know, it is a universal rule for ladies employed in clerical work to be allowed to retire at the age of fifty on some sort of pension?—Yes.

4212. Could you cite me such a case?-I cannot at the moment, but I am under the impression that it is the rule at the Bank of England, and I rather thought it was the rule in the Government service, but you will know better than I do. I know that at the time I went into it, and I found it was the practice.

4213. Did you go into it so far as to learn what was done throughout the Civil Service?-I do not know whether I went into the Civil Service, but I know I found out it was a general practice to allow women to go at fifty.

4214. On pension?—Yes.

4215. I do not want at all to put you in any diffi- calty, but it is very important that you should note that there is no such rufe in the Civil Service 1-I was not aware that there was a different rule in the Civil Service.

4216. (Sir Albert Spicer.) How many years have you been employing ladies They were employed before my time; I believe they were first employed about 1879 or 1880.

4217. That only makes 28 years.-Miss Boddy, whe was here the other day, has just completed 30 years' service.

4218. So that you have hardly come to the stage when pensions would be allowable? She is just about the age, I imagine, but there has been no concrete case at present.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE.

of 8 per cent.; but under our ing, except in the case of the we always lend the money of

it has any security to pledge, that has the money.

a the overdraft is credited to

fes, but that is a very small

d from the funds of other

is do not get the benefit of

y ought to keep a balance.

on current account.

to make those advances 7--80

ctions. It is a very small the money of the Colonies ich an extent that it is a very

or.) Have you authority to

■1-Quite so.

I understand that these overdrafts are really derived

of the various Colonies ?-

r current account, and at one

ur own in the business.

ith regard to these balances:

ity, as you told us?—Yes.

pticed Mr. Badock's evidence lid.

t of banks or firms to whom

o a bank-we think that the

d better system and then, of

the money again. We make

ether this case has ever hap- loss occurred in such a loan, is to how the loss would be past we have been authorised ie joint stock banks, and I unquestionably our answer. rity to lend out our surplus iks. We do not speculate in > the big banks and they are

le question of including the e pensions, I take it that in roaching more nearly that of moluments would hardly be of course, to abolishing the men would expect compen- thing happened that the o sixpence, that item of the nuch reduced.

les were reviewed and pro-

be possible to make a stipu-

t matter? It would be pos

he lady clerks, Miss Boddy that the ladies are anxious favourable terms

more

y, before the expiration of i know perfectly well that

alth broke down we should ige, on a medical certificate.

177

[31 July 1908.

4208. But in any other circumstances?-Under any circumstances, if a lady served us for a time and the nedical certificate was to the effect that she was per- manently incapacitated, we should give the pension. If any lady at the age of fifty was to express the desire to go, she would be allowed to go.

4204. On pension?-On pension.

4205. Is there any authority for that?I believe it

is the universal rule where women are employed that they may retire at fifty instead of sixty.

4206. Have the Colonial Office authorised you to make that statement?-No, I do not think that ques- tion has ever been raised.

4207. I fancy Miss Boddy told us that she had been informed by the Crown Agents that the lady clerks would be exempted from the ordinary rule?-I told her that no objection whatever would be raised

4208. Would it not be advisable to get that confirmed by the Colonial Office?-We generally raise these ques- tions on the specific cases.

4209. Is it advisable to issue such a notification

in anticipation of a case arising unless you have a general authority?--You must please remember that the Crown Agents' Office has always been worked on the basis that the Crown Agents have a very wide discretion. It is quite a new departure to have us queried on all these sort of questions.

4210. I thought that since 1900 it had been admitted with regard to pensions granted in the Crown Agents' Office, that the Colonial Office had laid it down that those pensions

were to be under Civil Service conditions.

4211. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I think I must try to clear up what I believe to be a misunderstanding. You

say, so far as you know, it is a universal rule for ladies employed in clerical work to be allowed to retire at the age of fifty on some sort of pension ?--Yes.

4212. Could you cite me such a case?-I cannot at the moment, but I am under the impression that it is the rule at the Bank of England, and I rather thought it was the rule in the Government service, but you will know better than I do. I know that at the time I went into it, and I found it was the practice.

4213. Did you go into it so far as to learn what was done throughout the Civil Service?-I do not know

whether I went into the Civil Service, but I know I found out it was a general practice to allow women to go at fifty.

4214. On pension ?—Yes.

4215. I do not want at all to put you in any diffi- culty, but it is very important that you should note that there is no such rule in the Civil Service?-I was not aware that there was a different rule in the Civil

Service.

4216. (Sir Albert Spicer.) How many years have you been employing ladies-They were employed before my time; I believe they were first employed about 1879 or 1880.

4217. That only makes 28 years.-Miss Boddy, who was here the other day, has just completed 30 years' service.

4218. So that you have hardly come to the stage when pensions would be allowable? She is just about the age, I imagine, but there has been no concrete case at present.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned.

Z

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

19

Reference :-

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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

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