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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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154

24 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. W. L. GRIFFITH.

Department who do very valuable work indeed. It is their business to meet boats with consignments of Canadian produce and to carefully watch the wad- ing of it, and to report in regard to any matter of inte. rest bearing on Canadian shipments.

3644. Are they ail centred round the High Commis- sioner's Office?-They are subject to the High Com- missioner.

3645. Are they in the same building?—No, We necessarily Lave them at the ports to which the vessels come Liverpool, Glasgow, Bristol, and so on.

3646. Would all the Canadian Government officials in London be centred more or less round the High Commissioner-We have an office which was estab

lished for emigration purposes only, the work grew su much that then there was a separation in the sense that the emigration office was established at Charing Cross'in a more public place.

3647. (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to the stores winch you order from the War Umce, I suppose you accept the War Office inspection?--We are very giad to get it and valuo it very much.

36418. In cases where you do make other purchases, have you any technical staff of inspectors-No, Í think probably what we should do in à case like that would be, if we should be so fortunate as to enlist it, to get the English department's advice and assistancó if they would give it."

The witness withdrew.

Mr. J. R. Nicholsos, called and examined.

3649. (Chairman.) Will you tell the Committee what knowledge you have with regard to Clown Agents ?-- 1 am the chairman and the chief engineer of the lan- jong L'agar Dock Board at Singapore, and we, before i the days of the company, had an agency in London for buying and for all purposes, which was taken over by the Crown Agents when we became Government pro- perly.

3650. When was that--July 1st, 1905. Since then the Crown Agents have acted as commercial agents for s in London. We spend in stores alone between £80,000 and 100,000 a year.

3651. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you expect that to be a per- manent average-Yes; we are not only ducks, but we are shipbuilders. We build and repair and have five graving docks. We can build ships up to 300 feet in length and boilers up to 75-tons weight. We are probably not exactly in the same position as Crown Colonies are, because with our own technical staff wo can tell the Crown Agents exactly what we want and where we want it, and we get it; they simply act as agents for us.

3652. (Sir Ralph Moor,) But you indicate where the purchases have to be made and they are absolutely bound by that? Yes, unless it happens to be, for instance, steel plates, or anything of that kind; as long as they are passed by Lloyd's we do not care where we get them.

3p53. Suppose you give an order to the Crown Agents, or send a requisition saying that you wish particular goods to be got from a particular firin, have they to do it 7-Yes.

3651. If they did not, what is your position-I they did not do it we should get them ourselves and tell them to pay the bill, or pay it direct.

3655. You are absolute masters, are you?—Yes. 3656. Are you quite sure of that?-We get our own way; in point of fact now we get everything our own way with regard to the Agents.

3657. (Sir Albert Spicer.) You say "now"; did not you always-We did not always; at first there was

little delay in the interregnum during the time of taking over by the Government; the Company put everything they possibly could in the way of the Government during the arbitration; the Crown Agents could not get hold of the order books from the London office, and therefore could not in some cases trace indents which had been ordered previously. In a few cases like that we wired or wrote direct for the stuff. We sometimes now, and must necessarily, running as a confinercial concern, if we have an inquiry from a shipowner for the repair of a vessel or new boilers, wire, independently, to save time, direct to the makers or the builders of that vessel. Of course, we tell the Crown Agents of what we have done, and they follow on; otherwise there would be delay.

3658. If the Crown Agents thought anything you did in question, what would you do? Supposing they. said they did not think you were entitled to send a telegram, would you agree or disagree with them, or what? We should tell them to mind their own busi-

less,

3059. Then what you said about their being a branch of your office represents the kind of status which you consider they bear?-Yes, purely agents for us.

3660. That being so, will you tell the Commitice whether their statt, as far as you are concerned, havo done their work efficiently and well, or not?-1 think they have done it very well, considering that it was an entirely new thing for them, and i think it is simpler for them, dealing with us in the way they do, because our indents are made out exactly so that they can clearly understand them, whereas

know as a tact from many of the Colonies, they do not get them In that way; they get an order probably for a gross of paint brushes. Now what can one do with that? The man dealing with the same indent before may have gone away, and the man in his place would not under- Stand it, we send the size and all particulars as if wo were sending to the makers and asking them to quote,

3661. What position are you in with regard to the Government of Singapore; do they come in at all, or do you give the orders to the Crown Agents without reference to the Government?-Without reference tu the Government nothing passes through the Colonial Secretary's Office at all with regard to orders, as we are a separate department entirely.

3662. Un the whole, does the system work well?— Very well indeed.

3663. Have you any suggestions you wish to make to the Committee with regard to the connection between Crown Agents and engineers-At first, vi course, there was a little tendency for going out of their way in applying too much to the expert consult ing engineers when it was not necessary, for instance, with regard to small jobs in which they were not entitled to call them in. Of course, when things get to offices in Westminster, like those in Victoria Street, they have a habit of growing to an extent far beyond what was originally contemplated. I think it might be as well if Crown Agents were given a freer hand in regard to engineers, and if they had a civil and mechanical engineer to deal with matters at once with- out passing them on to the consulting engineer.

3661. Instead of having an outside consulting en- gineer would you like them to have a branch of their own?--Yes, an engineer with a fairly wide experience, if a certain thing was too big, then he could use his discretion with regard to calling in consulting engineers.

3565. Have you had any dealings with the India Office with regard to this matter?-No.

3660. So that you have no experience of how their plan works 7-No. I know the Crown Agents have no drawing office, which I think would be a great im- provement.

3607. (Mr. Harris.) Are you sure of that?—I was toli so the other day.

3668. Have they abolished it?—I do not know,

3669. ('hairman.) Then you make two practical sug- gestions, do you that they should have their own staff of consulting engineers, and that, of course, would involve a drawing office?—Yes.

3670. Are there any other suggestions you would like

to make with the experience you have?—No, I think

none.

3671. As to all the work they have to do for you, they have very definite instructions, so that their own judgment does not much come in. does it? That is so.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. R. NICHOLSON,

3672. They afo purely agents ?--Yes. 3073. (Sir Albert Spicer.) Are they fairly prompt in the execution of orders compared with your previous experience?—Yes, fairly prompt; I think there is very little difference. We have had delays sometimes, but that was probably from a lack of knowledge that things were urgently required.

3674. When they receive a requisition from you, da they have to take it anywhere to find out whether it is all right financially-No, they execute it straight away; they have nothing whatever to do with our

finances.

3675. (Sir Ralph Moor.) As regards prices. is there any comparison between the prices you obtained before the arbitration and now?-No. With regard to prices we check them sometimes by getting people to quote to us dire We had a little feeling on the Board that which the Government wished to take over the Crown Agents as our agents, they would be rather too slow for a commercial undertaking, and made in quiries from many engineers' suppliers of stores in London as to what they would supply us at. taking our average al about £80.000 a year, and they all quoted 23 per cent. This last year the Crown Agents' commission, including their shipping agents' charges, amounts to a little over 13 per cent., and the year before it was 1 11-16 per cent., so that we practically save 1 per cent, over what any of the outside firms would supply us at.

3876. (Mr. Harris.) Apart from percentage, have you found, what I understand one or two Colonial Governments have found, that Crown Agents' prices are lower than you paid before?-No, they are about the

same.

3677. (Mr Gibson.) As regards the use of consulting engineers, do you consider it would be more econo mical and judicious if Crown Agents had a staff in their own office?--I think so a general engineer with good all-round experience and commercial experience.

3878. There would be no fear of his getting out of date, I suppose, if the engineer is tied up in a Crown Agents' office ?--If so I would get rid of the man and get another.

3679. You would not have him permanently?—No, if he became inefficient.

3680. I suppose you are referring to the technical officer, not to the clerical staff?-The function of a Crown Agent is commercial, it is not administrative at all.

3681. But you know, do you not, that there are simi- lar departments in the Government service here, in the War Office, the India Office, and the Admiralty, in which the functions are precisely the same as those of Crown Agents, and they do not take on men from month to month? Do you see any reason why Crown Agents should not be similarly constituted?—Yes; the Admiralty and War Office and the India Office do the work for themselves entirely. It would be different if the Crown Agents were a Government Department entirely they would necessarily moye slower, because a Government Department moves as a machine, as a whole; there is not the same individual responsibility or freedom of action, and the whole machine would move slower. In our case, we should most likely be delayed in obtaining material, and having to compete could not wait, and therefore we should have to have an agency of our own. We must have a reply at once to our letters or telegrams.

3682. Do you imagine Crown Agents move more quickly than the War Office or India Office! I have no experience of the India Office: I have experience of the Colonial Office, the Admiralty and the War Office, The Colonial Office are slow. the Admiralty Office are much slower, and the War Office-well!

3683. To what class of transactions are you refer- ring?-Commercial transactions with us as a Dock Boar. As a Dock Board we store at Singapore some- thing like 250,000 tons of coal: we have an Admiralty storage there of 30.000 tons, and we are often in com- munication with the Admiralty here through the Admiral on the China station.

3884. Does not that arise from the fact that you

155

[24 July 1908.

have to communicate through local offices?—No, I have a caso in mind now. We had a lease of some property in Singapore which we used as coal sheds for 21 years, which lease expired in June, 1906. We are carrying out large extensions, as you may know, at Singapore, which necessarily cramps us a good deal, and our wharfage space is crowded, so we wanted to get the lease renewed for ten years, but we have been able to do so only lately. That was not a case in which the local officers are concerned at all.

3685. You would admit that is a somewhat compli cated question, is it not, and not quite on a par with a commercial transaction?-I should think it was a simple question, simply a question of leasing a piece of land for ten years.

Suppose the

3486. (Chairman.) In a case like that, Parliamen- tary control comes in probably, does it not?-Probably ; 1 admit tha, in that respect it is not quite a parallel. 3687. You said: "When we send a letter or a tele- gram we want an answer at once." Crown Agents do not send an answer at once, what happens? Then we wire direct.

3688. To whom?-To the person we dealing with.

are probably

3680. Do you make any representation to the Crown Agents?—Yes.

3690. You are in a better position to hurry them up and go over their heads, than if they were a Govern- ment Department?—Yes.

3601. In point of fact, do you think you have com- plete control over them as they are at present consti- tuted and that they must do as they are told?—Yes.

3002. (Mr. Gibson.) You would very much object to their being brought more directly under the Colonial Office, would you?-Yes, as long as we run as a com- mercial undertaking in competition with others.

3893. (Chairman.) Which you do, of course ?— Which we do.

3694. (Mr. Leathes.) Do you communicate directly with the Crown Agents or do communications go through the Governor?-Wo communicate with them direct..

a

3695. Is that because you are a Government Depart. ment, or how does that como about?-Wa-are Government Department, but why should we delay by going through another department which knows nothing at all about the matter?

3096. (Mr. Bailey). In considering your orders, how do you discriminate between those which you send home and those which you place kcally; have. you any hard and fast line or any general rule with regard to that?-No, what we get locally is smaller articles, but we are practically the largest traders, so that there is nothing really large which we can get locally to pay us

3607. Take the much quoted commodity, cement, do you get all that through the Crown Agents?—No, not all; we buy a lot of that locally.

3698. What in practice determines you to buy locally or to get, what you want through the Crown Agents? When we buy locally, it is in regard to our ordinary requirements; as to cement, we should buy 100 or 200 barrels, because it would not pay us to make a contract for a couple of thousand tons of cement and have it lying in a place like Singapore: with a climate like that of Singapore for several months. It is much better to take 50 or 100 barrels from the local people.

3699. Taking the question generally, do you find the supplies you get locally are equal to those you get from England No. It all depends on the article.

3700. You do not think they are so good locally?—— No, because if we get anything locally it must be exactly the thing we require. If we want buckets we want them of a certain weight and strength; in cer- tain cases we can get things cheaper very often by ordering from home, in other cases cheaper by buying locally.

3701. And it is only when you find it a distinct advantage to do so that you employ the Crown Agents? --Certainly,

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned to Monday next. 10.30 o'clock.

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