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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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20 July 1908,

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. S. C. AFFORD.

fulfilled" (that we have dealt with during the last few minutes). It is contended that some improve- ment in this respect is essential, and that the staff are entitled to ask that a scale of salaries and incre ments, duly recognised by the Secretary of State. should be introduced." Hi is on that point that you say you are unaumwas?—Yus.

285, It is further submitted that this scale should be of a similar character to that in force in other Government Departments dealing with supply and arents. Thirdly: The salaries of certain third class clerks have recently ceased to progress after reaching

0 per annum, although others of their number were already in receipt of salaries above this figur 11 is submitted that in view of the nature of their duties, clerks of this class should be able to procvet It is under- to a higher salary than £300 per annum. sted that in 1998 when the responsibilities of the class were inch less the Secretary of State sanctioned pay- ment of salaries upto à maximum of £350° jer Have you any reason to give us why these gist'emen have not progressed beyond 23002. İ know it is not on account of any shortesting on their part, bps thy havo subfequently been chosen for pro

3.

2086. Is it part of the policy, do you think?--It may have been a later policy perhaps, but it is rather hard to form an opinion on these things in the absence of any defined or published scheme. I sup- pose the Crown Azente must have formed the idea that unless they got promotion their salaries could not go any further.

2057. (Jr. Bailey.) There is one case of a gentle man who has been considerably longer in the class than anybody else-One man has been there a long tin certainly, but when this man's salary passed £300. his service was of normal length.

2988. (Chairman.) You wish this to be borne in mind by the Committee in any recommendations they may make-Certainly

2059. Fourthly, you say: "In the event of the in troduction of a scale of salaries. the head of a section. on obtaining promotion to a higher grade, should proceed direct to the minimum salary of his new appointment." What do you say upon that?-Under the present system, one thing is that we cannot fortn any idea what promotion would mean to us if we got it and, in addition to that, we have seen from past results the most extraordinary discrepancies in seniority in the case of people who are third class clerks who are considerably senior. at any rate in point of salary, to people who are not. Supposing T were offered the next post in my own Department to- morrow, the Crown Agents would give me something. no doubt, to signalise my promotion. but I should not have the faintest idea what that increment would be,

2990. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) There being no fired scale of salary to the uffice to which you would be Our point is that the salary promoted--That is so. should have some relation to the duties that have to be performed.

2901. (Chairman.) That the salary should be at- tached to the post and not to the man?-Yes.

2002. (Mr. Leathes.) You think the minimum salary for class II. should be at least as great as the maximum salary for class III-We think so.

2998. (Chairman.) Finally, you say that the prist of Secretary and of Crown Agent should be open to the staff; do you consider that all the Crown Agents should be open to the staff?-No, but w think at least one should.

2094. Why -Because we have formed the opinion that there are many points upon which those who have never been through the offies eaunot properly appreciate the views put forward by the senior mem- ber of the staff, and they cannot understand the reason why they hold those views.

2005. As to the post of Secretary, you do not know whether that is open or not?-All we know is that the only two appointments made up to the present time have been made from outside.

2996. Does the Secretary deal with your Depart - ment-To a certain extent.

.

2907. Do you submit things to him?-Some of the things in the department du go to him, but anything important would go to the Crown Agents.

2098. (Mr. Leathes.) Without passing through the Secretary-Yes.

298009. (Se Albert Spacer) Will you tell us a few of your duties in connection with this class-The work in each department varies somewhat, but I think 1 Each department is sepa- can make it very clear. rated into sections,

3000. Will you just describe your own work?—I am in the department known as the Pay Office, and we deal with all payments, the issuing of payments, and the receiving of payments, and the correspond. ence in connection with them. Under me all the work is done in the section by some third class clerks and some fourth.

3001. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) What is the number of men in your section?-- About five and copyists. All the work they do comes on to me; check it. and am responsible for its accuracy, and I alter it as I think it, and send it on to the head of my

18 which clitli- department. If anything curs cult, or difficult and out of the orditiary routine, I should do it personally, and send it on to the head of my department or to the assistant. tion to that in my own case and the other section of am authorised to countersign the Pay Office, I cheques.

In addı.

3002. The second signature?--There is a second sig. nature. In a great many cases the person who signs the second signature is not in a position to judge of the accuracy of the cheque I have to countersign, in fact that very often recurs. I think that particular potni as to countersigning the cheques shows that mine is a position of some responsibility and trust. Again. in another department, the fieveral Stores Department, the heads of sections place, without refer ence to the heal of the department until after they have done it, contracts under £100.

3003. Do you mean place them finally without their being submitted to anybody else?—Yes; a good mang of these contracts would probably be in the case of firms we deal with very frequently, nuld the heads of sections would give the order. They would not place the order if it was a competitive contract perhaps, but very few entrnets of that size are competitive.

3004. That you would do, and your order would b final-I think it would.

3005, (Sir Albert Spicer,). You would sign this order. and it would go out?--Eventually, of course, the order would go on with a signed letter.

3006. Would the order be signed in your depart. ~ ment I have some difficulty in replying absolutely to that, because I am not in the department.

your

3007, (Sir Francis Mornff.) Did you not say that in own case you signed orders? I countersigu cheques.

30. But you do not sign these orders for gouls under £100)--No; I can only deal with the payment of it in my department. and I have nothing to de with contracts.

3009, (Mr. Gibson.) It is the section lead of the Store Department who would do that?---That is so

3010, (M. Harris) You cannot tell Sir Franc what would happen if you were a section head in that particular department, the Stores Department?- I euld not go into very much detail about it. but I know the section head of that department has made that remark to me.

011. (Sir Ralph Moor) What do you regard now as the present method of promotion in the Crown Agents' fiov?--I think it is based upon merit as far as I know.

3012. Partly on selection?. On selection.

3013. Seniority does not count?-I imagine the senior man would be the first name to be consideral, but he would not necessarily be chosen.

3011. Supposing the senior man were fit and com petent. although the next man might be a little better, who would get it 7-That is one of the magic

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. S. C. ALFORU

secrets of the Crown Agents that 1 have. never been It is part of our point that we cannot form het Anto.

uy thea of the way things are done,

3015. You would prefer the system in the Civil service which, I take it, is seniority qualified by competency?—Yes.

Bubi, (M1, tithson.) With regard to the class IV. clerks in your particular section, are you satisfied anth their efficiency for the work they have to do or it would be better done you consider that men of rather a superior class of intelligenes with jrhaps more limited numbers? Do you think that fewer better class men could do the work which is how done by a larger number of comparatively less w qualified men As far as my own experience is mernel the work they hate to do they all do very well.

3017. And you do not want a higher stamp of man de come in at the bottom?—Not for that sort of work. think that perhaps the number of men (i.r., second and third-class clerks) available for the better work is

what inadequate and should be increased. 2018. 1 the work of these fourth class clerks very largely routine-1t is practically entirely routine; i There is anything not in the ordinary routine I Should do it myself, unless it was something specially important, and then the assistant would deal with it

Some very big matter.

3019) You seem to have a considerable number of lass IV. clerks at present; could their work in future be done by inen of the abstractor type-the assistant clerks of the Civil Service?--I do not know very much about the abstractor type.

3020. Is there very much difference between the work of your copyists and the class IV. clerks? Many

f the class IV, clerks were copyists originally.

3021. Is there a clear delimitation between the work the copyists do now and the work the fourth class Perks Ho? There is. I think.

302. If your fourth class clerks were largely opyists, they are practically the assistant clerk type f man? I was not quite sure what the abstractor

WAS.

3023. (Mr. Leathes.) Is it your impression that the detail of your office is not sufficiently known to the Crown Agents? You suggested that it was desirable that a member of the staff-somebody who had been through the office should be a Crown Agent. Do you think it would be a great advantage to have as Frown Agent somebody thoroughly conversant with the detail of the office -- Certainly.

3024. You feel that sometimes the Crown Agents do not properly understand all the bearings of a problem herause they do not know the minutie?--Exactly; or in other cases not quite the same thing. perhaps. According to the present system it rests entirely with the Crown Agents to decide the exact numbers of the staff in each room, and I think it is absolutely impos- sible for them to do so.

3025. They can only do so on the recommendation of the heads of departments-Exactly, I do not think they are prepared to take that as final.

B35

20 July 1900s.

3026. (Mr. Harris.) You have referred several times in your evidence to a feeling of-1 will hardly call it dtscontent, but discomfort with regard to the future. Have you ever made any appeal or representation to The Crown Agents as to the position, or has any such appeal ever been made in the office to your knowledge 7 I believe it has. I know the dissatisfaction became Somewhat sette some little while ago.

3027. (Chairman) When?-About four years ago, and the result was that a committee consisting authorised of certain members of the staff

was

to sit by the Crown Agents, and they drew up and submitted a report. I was not on the committee and

I do not know all the secrets, but I am under the impression that something of that sort was included in the report.

3028. Do you know what came of the report?--It is in existence

3029, (Mr. Harris.) Did any result follow from the report? The only result I know of which I imagine followed from it was the creation of this post of,licad of section. The head of section then took over a good deal of the duties originally performed by the assistants.

3030. If you had a new regular scale of salaries, do you think it would tend to make the men slack. as far

as your experience goes?—I do not think it would if they knew it had some reference to their promotion— unless there was a system of salaries and promotion absolutely by seniority

3031. There would be the power to withhold an in- crement? That would certainly be an influence.

3032. (('hairman.) As to this report, to whom was it sent, do you know?I do not know, but the com mittee consisted of five members; each grade of the staff elected a representative.

3033. And they drew up a report ?-- Yes.

3034. Do you know what date it was, because we should like to ask for it?To my recollection it was about four years ago, and it is the only thing of this kid that has been done.

3035. Abeut four years ago a report sent in by a committee elected by the staff: that would describe it? ---Yes.

3036. (Mr. Bailey.) When you entered the office were you in this building or in the building in Whitehall Gardens? In the building below.

3037. Just after you entered, the rate of incre- ment was diminished?—Yes, not only for new-comers but those already in the place.

3038. Was that owing to the fact that the Crown Agents were incurring very beavy liabilities in re- gard to their building? Did you connect the two Ühings in your mind in any way?—No, and I am not quite sure that I do now.

3039. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you wish to say to the Committee?-I think perhaps I should rather like to hand in these extracts which I have from letters which certain candidates received before they were appointed specifying the salaries, because I think those extracts constitute something in the nature of an obligation (handing in the same).

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned to to-morrow at half-past 19 o'block.