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10 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. E. WALKER.

and ourselves, such as the hotels and large buildings which have been put up. The Government ask du to tender for the Post Office, and we and so, doing in connection with the tender an immense amount of work. My practical co-director was at home at the time, and I telegraphed to him and he came out specially, and we put in the tenders. I would like to explain that in this tender we were to be bound down to a certain figure, of course, under a very heavy penalty as to me. If it were not done by that time we were to be penalised to the extent of a substantial sum for every week's lelay. Everything was agreed upon that point, and then the Govern ment said: “No, we will do it departmentally.”

1700. When was this?-1800, or about that time. I have not the exact «late. The net result in that case was that the Public Works Department found that they had under-estimated the cust, and in- stend of the Director having to pay for it, the Colony was asked to make up the difference, which amounted to a large sum. Further, the Public Works Depart- ment took twelve months longer to complete the work than we were to be bound down under penalty to do it in.

1791. Of course. I'am assuming that in each of these cases the Government did the work, and obtained their supplies through the Crown Agents?—Exactly.

1792. These are the three instances you specially wish to give?—Yes.

1793. Then can you tell us how many engineering firms there are in Ceylon of sufficient status to be able to carry out these big works?--In Colombo úlone there are four, including ourselves.

1791. As good as yourselves?-Other two would come up very nearly, and would undertake almost all the work we would undertake to do.

1795. And the thirt besides yourselves are not so large a concern?-Not so large, but quite capable of undertaking considerable works.

1796, Building a post office?—I doubt whether they would have done that. That was an exceptionally large work.

1797. How many besides that? Are there any up country -We have our own place up country; there is another firm but not of any great standing, but all the other firms in Colombo work up country. Ceylon is such a small place that they work up country from Colombo,

1798. There are three firms of standing sufficient to carry out the kind of work you have been giving us evidence about?-There are at least four firms.

1799. (Sir Albert Spicer.) As yours is a limited company, may I ask the capital?-The capital in our company altogether is close on a quarter of a million.

1800. Sterling or rupees 7-Sterling.

1501, (Chairman.) Are the other companies of a similar status?—I should think altogether there is a capital of nearly three-quarters of a million in the engineering business and trading concerns of that kind.

1802. I suppose we need hardly ask you whether the business regarsh the Chan Agent system with favour?-Very much the reverse.

1-03. That is natural. You say that you have lived in Ceylon for a great number of years, and of course it is only human nature that the Crown Agents" sys- tem, with the staff as at present constitutes), should not langarlet with favour by the local enginering firms. but the community at large may or may not take the same view what do you say upon that?-- In the notes here I refer ton dhate in the Legislative Council in Colombo; I also give the correspondence between the Chamber of Commerce of Colombo and the Chamber of Commerce, Singapore, on the qu tion. al yon get their views, and incidentally I would like to remark in connection with the grain shed incident, to which I ferred, that Sir William Mitchell who was then a member of the Legislative Council, and Mr. Figg, who was Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce, protested against this work being placed at home. I mention that als bu Loth of the gentlenen happen to be on lean in this

country at the present moment, and I have no doubt would be quite willing and well qualified to confirm what I have said; they are both members of the Lagislative Council, or liave been.

1801. Unofficial members?-Unofficial members.

1805. You have given us instances of people who are opposed to it: who is there in favour of the system in Ceylon-No one that I know of except the Govern ment official,

1806. Nobody at all?-Nobody absolutely.

1807. Do you say that if you took a referendum on the subject it would be a case of thousands to nothing?

Thousands, because it means work to the Colony.

Iss. If they did the work cheaper and better one would suppose there would be a certain number of people in favour of the system. The consumers would be in favour of it, while the producers would view it with disfavour. Do you seriously tell us that there is nobly in favour of the present system!— Absolutely, and I would be quite willing to take a poll to-morrow,

1609. Not one? Not one that I know of.

1810. (Mr. Gibson.) Your statement is that the work If done locally would be done cheaper than through the Crown Agents? Yes, and ask in consider- ing this question that it may be borne in mumi that whatever work is done locally has paid duty ai the Custom House for the material. It has paid municipal taxes on its buildings, and it pays the Colomal and the Imperial taxes. Now it is not a fan comparison to say the Crown Agents can do this work cheaper, because they pay no duty and they pay no taxes. The Governinent does not even pay municipal taxes on its Government workshops in Colombo, nor interest on the capital sunk in the enterprise. private enterprise is a little dearer in some cases than the Crown Agents, the Government gets it back in the 6 per cent. Customs duty and in the municipal taxes. which the private firm or company has to pay.

If

1811. (Sir Albert Spicer,) What are the import duties in Ceylon? Af colurem őj per cent. Then. sir, may emphasise one other point, the importance of encouraging such industrial establishments in places like Colombo from an Impérial point of view. We never know the day when the Government may be very anxious to take advantage of such places. It has happened before, when we were threatened with a war with Russia, and in later years when we had the Boer War. I have letters here from the Commanding Officer of the Engineers thanking as for work done in such a way that he said it could not have been inten anywhere in any establishment even in the United Kingdom at a time of great stress and energy. 1 think that is an important factor in connection with industrial establishments in the Colonies.

1812. (Mr. Gibson,) Although you are not allowed to work or to supply stores to the Colonial Government, do you do work and supply stores to the Army and Navy authorities; do you do work for the Royal Engineers? Yes, we are on the Admiralty list.

1×13) And do you work for the Almiralty as well !--- We do. If you will permit me, sir. I wilt read this sentence from the letter from the Colonel : *1 thank you very much for the assistance which you promptly afforded me at a rather critical time." I mention ib just as supporting that view,

1-14. Fairman.) Is there any other particular point you would like to bring la fore the Committee? Just one point and very briefly. I think Ceylon and the other Crown Colonies weabl be well satisfiest if the Colonial Government instead of issuing that regula- tion which I have just read were to issue the saine regulation that has been issued by the Madras Govern - ment, a neighbour, which is as follows: Tenders for

all Government works of importance requiring en gineering plant will be in future publicly a Ivertised for. and other things being equal, preference will b given to local firms provided the interests of Govern - Bent are not sacrificed thereby," That is the policy of India sir, and what is the result? You have mag- nificent industrial workshops in India but no Govern ment factory. The Government calls for ten-lers there and gives out enormous public works railway e struction, bridges, and cåher works and the local establishments are encourage thereby. The Viceroy

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. E. WALKER.

Imlia, as far back as 1885, said that wherever it was possible Government requirements should be tained enlly rather than be imported. What we ark is that the same spirit and the same regulation as that in Madras might be applied to Colombo, and then we would be quite happy.

Isla. Can you give us any reason you know of for the difference between Madras and Caylon ?—None, except that the one is a Crown Colony and the other

is nut.

1816. As far as you know are there as many firms capable of undertaking work in Ceylon as there are in Madrus - Better, I should say.

is17. The point you most wish to emphasis is the galation which you have read from the Madras Cir- utar? That is the point.

1818. (Mr. Gibson.) Under that, do you teller at all for Indian-orders for the Governm fit of India?. No, we are too far from the scrue.

1819. (Sir Albert Spacer.) Have you ever tendered for the Travancore Government, which is comparas have tyly var Not for the Government, but we due a good deal of work for planters there, erveting factories and work of that kind.

1820, (Ubairmán) One last question: You will ob- rve that in the Madras regulation and in all similar gulations, there is always added: ** Provided the interests of the Government are not sacrificed there bs,” and it very often runs: So far as the interests , the pubhervievcan be met." In your julguent wald there be suilicient effective compitition in Cey: 1. to enable the public interests not to be sacribend such works were to lu put to local tender :- Also, int ly, and I would go furileer and say that we would 1- quite willnig to submit to competition with British mns on the same specification. You see, our labour at there is very much cheaper; we would have to pay a little more for our material, but the labour is much cheaper.

1921, How long is it since you had a Government contract or any other large local work? I think th

tusion of the railway workshops and the extension of one of the railway stations are amongst the last we led from Government, but I have been away for three years.

12. Why were they advertised for beally when you say the geneal rule is that they are mot?- When Th Government's own workshops are too full, or when they want a thing done in n great hurry, they give it lo private enterprises

18:23. (sir Albert Spierr.) You have quoted this ad vertisement from the Colonial Office. I notice that is entirely in rohnection with works pa bo carried out in Cylon ?—Yes.

It

121. Would that mod y ur whole objection? des not touch just ordinary stores; it only temelue stores indirectly where they are included in some in

strial works? Quite s

1825. Your chief point. I gather, is with regard to the work that coull be carried out in Oxylem ?----That

is wi

1826. It is not a question of just ordinary good that have to be bought in the United Kingdom ----Not

much that.

1827, 11 is a question of works that could be carried our there-Quite so.

1828. And that applies, I take it, mainly in India well; it only refers to goods that can be produced pha and works that can be carried out in India? - Yes.

in

1829), (Mr, tilton.) Do you carry out works for the Municipality there as apart from the Government' – Yes, we do, but there is part of the evil of the system, I was a member of the Municipal Council for five Jears, and the Municipal Council is a semi-Govern- ent institution, and if it wants work done in the fiovernment factory it can get it done -even the Muni- espal Council.

1530. When you say you do work for the Army, or that you are on the Admiralty list, have you done any large services for them? What amount of work have you done, say for the Admiralty (--A good deal of

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[10 July 1998.

steather work, repairs, m connection with man-of-war in the harbour. That comes unier Marine engineer- ing.

We have done very heavy steamship work, but not so much heavy work for the Admiralty, because the Admiralty do not often require heavy work.

1831. I suppose your War Office orders are stailer' -- Yes, there is very little heavy work to be done there,

1832. Have the Ariny orders to place their work out to binder!--As a rule it is done by the Civil Govern-

ment.

1833. On behalf of the Army?--Yes.

1831. (M1, Lenthes.) What about the Boer prisoners! The work for the sheds which had to be ervetel in a great hurry was put out to tender and distributed amongst the different firms.

1835. That was done by private enterprise -Yes, in the main.

1536. It was considerable !-Yes, it was a consider- able work.

137. (Mr. Gibwn.) I take it that the Public Works Department practically keep up what you might call a minimum or constant establishment to cope with ordinary skemands, and anything outside that probably they put out to open tender. Is that the practice -- Quite so, but the Government factory is à large in- dustry.

1838. You think the Public Works Department should be reluced at any rate!—As regards manufac-

inring. My idea of a public works department is exactly as it exists in Thalia--to arrange for public works to be carried out and then tu luk after the firms that carry them out and see that they are done properly, but not to carry them out themselves and then to report upon them themselves, which reports are always must satisfactory.

19. You are convinced that in the majority of the cases the Government work turns out more expen- sive than if it had been done by private enterprise?— Without hesitation I say s

1840), (M. Lathes,) Can you tell me whether there has been any change of policy in this respect ?-Has the Public Works Department been extending its operations during recent years or is it a thing of old standing? The Public Works Department has an doubtedly extended its operations very much during the past few years. Ceylon has been prosperons during the last few years ami there are a great many public works that have been done and are in sight at the pre- sunt moment. have amongst my papeis here a list of public works now sanctiones involving an expendi ture of 41 million rupees or £300,000. All that work will be done by the Government either out there or through the Crown Agents here, and, because we have gone out and established ourselves there instead of here, we and the other industrial establishments are barred from tendering.

1841, (Chairman.) You are not barred from tender- ing, are you? Yes, because the Crown Agents call for tenders at home here. In the case of the gram sheds about which I gave quotation from Mr. Chamberlain's letter, although we tendered, other estimates were sent out from England, and we were informed by the Colo- nial Ottice that it was not their intention tenders should be called for in Ceylon.

1842, (Mr. Harris.) That brings up a point I wishesl to ask you about. You have a London house, have you not”- Purely an office--a buying agency.

1813. Would you not be aware of the tenders called for here?-No.

1844. Why not? If you have an office here, would it not be your duty to look out for tenders for Ceylon work called for in this country --We are not a manu. facturing firm here and we are not on the Crown Agents' list.

1845. (Nir Albert Spicer,) May I supplement Mr. Leathes question by asking how many are employed regularly by the Government. I think you said you employel some 1,300; about how many do the Govern ment workshops employ 2-1 cannot say. Tut. I should think probably about 500 or 600, possibly more. is a few years since I was out there."

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