CO885-(18-19) — Page 731

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

81

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

6 July 1908,

Roosy, C.M.G., called and examineri.

Mr. F. R.

1682. (Chairman.) Will you tell the Committee your previous history, in so far as you have had knowledge of the Crown Agents-It was in the year 1881 that I first had anything directly to do with them. I was then financial clerk in this office, and my depart- ment had the checking of all their trust funds and the verification of their balances. The pensions from their office also came through my hands, is did a great many of the Crown Colony pensions. Subsequently in 1890, when Mr. Ebden, who was chief clerk, died, I became head of the General Department, and then all the questions connected with the Crown Agents' staff eams through me.

1883. Have you put down any particular form of evidence or would you like just to tell us broadly your views in reference to the matter-I have not put anything down.

1884. That does not matter at all. Perhaps you would tell us in your view, broadly, is the present system of the Crown Agents Department a good plan or a bad plan, and does it work well or badly as regards the satisfaction of the Colonies and the staff-I should say on the whole it worked well, certainly.

16. What is your view of the relations of the Crown Agents to the Secretary of State? Are they ailutely under his control, in your view 7-Yes, I think they ought to be, certainly. There has been an Occasions! tendency to make themselves too indepen- dent of him, I think.

1686. But that you would check?--Yes. Originally the Treasury used to check the Crown Agents to a great extent. hat the Treasury got rid of the work bolne 30 years ago at the time when certain Colonies became responsible Governments. The idea was that the Treasury did not like having anything to do with responsible "Governments, and The Colonies which bee un responsible Governments-the Cape, Western Australia, and Natal-did not wish at first to have in pendent agents, and the Crown Agents eon- tinued for years after that to act as agents in the matter of their loans an-1 certain specific things. I think that as regards certain loans they have acted for New Zealand up to the present time. Of course, the Crown Agents' revenues were then largely derived from those loans, and the Treasury wished to get rid of any responsibility for that work. The intention was, I imagine to pass that responsibility, as regards matters in which the Agents were not under direct onders from the Colonial Government, on to the Colo- nial Office, but I think there was rather a feeling with the Agents that they were to get rid of the Colonial Office control also. Perhaps as a whole the Colonial Office was not as competent to control the Agents as the Treasury. At all events there was a tendency to relax the previous control,

1687. Your special knowledge is in regard to financial matters and in regard to their staff?--Yes.

16. In your view, is it essential to the good work- ing of the Crown Agents' Department that they should be more independent than an ordinary Government Department, say, the similar Department in the India Office?--I have had nothing to do with the India Offe, but I think there is a good deal to be said for giving the Agents what I should call elasticity in the choice of their own officers. I mean, that the Civil Service Commissioners should not simply plant men upon them, if they became a pure Governinent Depart- ment that would become the case. I am not sure how far that is the case in the India Office at the present lay, although I think the higher posts in the India Office are filled by the Civil Service Com- missioners,

1650. We have had evidence upon that point, and it appears that the whole of the India Office is Civil Service except certain technical posts?-But I think once they have passed into the India Office they are absolutely servants of the Indian Government, and under the control of the Secretary of State. The Treasury have certainly no control of the India Office, I believe I am right in saying.

1690. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Under arrangement with the India Offe they are treated exactly as Civil Servants in every respect; as regards pensions, scales

of pay and everything they are on exactly the same lines --Do they not fix their own scales of pay in the India Office? They are not subject to the Treasury or in any direct way to Parliament.

1891. They have the power to tix them, but they are desirous of making their service an exact replica of the English Civil Service?-The Agents have an enormous responsibility as ngands the purchase of stores and a great deal of their financial work, and they give large security, as you know.

1692. (Chairman.) Personal security-Yes. upon appointment, which I think I am right in saying the Treasury have practically done away with in the Home

Service.

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1693. (Sir Francis Muratt.) There are throughout the Service men performing fiduciary duties who give security. It has been found that the best possible way of checking any impropriety was imaneiliate prose- cution in every case; that was found to be infinitely better than any guarantee?-I think there was feeling here that the Agents occupied a somewhat more independent position than the ordinary Civil Servant, and that it was desirable to continue the security system, and it has always been continued, I think. There is, therefore, more to be said for letting them freely choose their own men.

1694, (Chairman.) You think there is 7-Yes, par- ticularly for some of their higher appointments.

1095. Could you tell the Committee why, in your spicion they should have more control over their staff Mr. Harding, in this memorandum about pensions, refers to the pension granted to Mr. Leonard. I happen to remember the circumstances of his appointment; at that time the Crown Agents were a small department: they wanted to get a head accountant with commercial experience in

the City; they advertis d and had a number of applica. tions and slected this man from a large number of the applications. That is a hung which is hardly known in the ordinary Government service.

1696 (Sir Francis Moraltà It is identical as you will probably know with the practic of the Civil Service; the technical or professional officers, as they are nenus, are not tested by competitive examina- tion!I have never seen the Civil Service Com missioners advertise for an armoqnianı, and I do not think the Treasury minutes give them professional qualifications. I was struck by the memorandum as to this pension case, because I remember passing the papers at the time and thinking it was a case in which a man had come straight from the city at the age of 35 or so, and that he was entitled, or had a good claim, to a larger pension than a man entering in the ordinary way and having the same length of service.

1697. (Chaijman.) Could you tell the Committee on what you base your view that it is advisable that the Crown Agents staff shoubi be treated differently from th staff of other departments of State, other than this view as fu fortain professional people who would, of course, be appointed in the same way even if they were got through the Civil Service Commissioners ?—I do not think the Civil Service system should apply to ordinary first appointments; although I should not feel with the same strength about that. I consider that there is a good deal to be said for personal appoint- ments where the responsibility rests with the Head.

1699. You know the system and r which the Crown Agents" reserve fund has been built up and under which their salaries and pensions are paid? - Yes.

1009. The reserve fund now amounts to £430,000. practically the whole of it, or at least very much the larger proportion of it, being provided by commissions for work done. It has been suggested to us that the suns paul might be paid differently, that is to say, there might be a fixed sum paid by a Colony on the average of the work done; which do you think would the better plan the present or some such plan as ! have indicated? I think a commission on the work don produces a fair average as a rule, but I think they have accumulated a much larger sum than was really required. In two or three circulars the Secre-

Mr. F. R. Round, C.M.G.

tary of State has from time to time modified the rates, and I think they might have been modified further st

no time.

1700. What is your view as to the reserve fund- who controls it? The Secretary of State clearly ought to-and 1 expressed that opinion very strongly some years ago that the fund really was in the nature of a Trust fund which had been extracted from the Colonies under his orders, and to a larger extent than was necessary, and that they really had the ultimate claim upon it. My view was that the Agents had no personal claim upon it, which I know has been the view of some of them at different times.

1701. What is your view as to the liability of the Crown Agents for mistakes made? There are two sorts of mistakes: firstly, those caused through wilful neglect and default, which are fortunately quite un- known in their office, I believe, and the ordinary mis- takes that can be made as in the Jamaica case; who is hable?-1 imagine as they give security they certainly might be held liable, but I do not remember a claim ever being raised against them personally.

1702. You would presume that in the first case they would be personally liable?—Yes, and if any of their clerks defaulted certainly their fund would be liable. I think the fund is a great convenience, because their revenue did fail very much at one time. A large loan might be raised one year which produced a certain amount of income, and during the next two or three years no loan would be raised, so that the income of their fund varied, and it was convenient to have this reservo fund

1703. There is only one other point I think I need trouble you with before the other members of the Com- mittee ask you questions, and that is about the diffi culty of the violent fluctuations in the Crown Agents' Office. It has been suggested that you could not inake it more a branch of the Civil Service because the fluc tuations of business are so great that that could not be managed. What do you say upon that ?-Certainly their business has varied very considerably ; c.g,, when Mr. Chamberlain came into office there is no doubt about it that there was a far greater expenditure from Imperial Funds in connection with the Colonies, on th West African Frontier Force, and other matters of a similar nature; the Uganda Railway was also an- other instance of practically an Imperial matter.

1704. (Sir Francis Moratt.) That was true also of the Civil Service Departments, was it not? Take the War Office, for instance, the South African War imm nsely and temporarily increased their duties and number-l'an increase of their staff necessary ?--Yes,

1705. And they had to face the same difficulty that when it was over the staff had to be reduced, and so forth 1 think we did not increase the staff of the Crown Agents permanently during the time of the Suth African War. H 1 recollect rightly the l'arlia- i ntary paper [UI. 2211], shows that their incidental expenses increased very considerably for 2 or 3 years. owing to the fact that they had a number of tem-

rary clerks employed.

1706, 1 am only pointing ont that there is no dis faction between the (ii) Service and the Crown Avents" (they in the fact that a sudden access of work may arise to either, which requires to be met by a Jemporary increase of staff.

1707. (Chairman.) In your view would you think it dirable to make any change in the direction of mak- ing the Crown Agents more a department of the Civil Sratre, or more dependent on the Crown Colonies, or mop dependent on the Secretary of State if you do make a change at all; or rather do you think any change is desirable, and, if so, what in those particu- lar I think the Crown Agents' Office ought to be delare an office administered by a Public Depart

Sir Francis Mowalt wil' recollect the Art of 1892 about the pensions..

rent,"

08. The Superannuation Act of 1999, do you ? Yes, the cheet ling that when members of this office were transferred in the Crown Agents or rame back here, they should be treated practically as having been in the permanent Civil Service through-

fit.

26 July 19085,

1709. And they should bring the scale of pay and pensions mure into conformity with the Civil Service rates of pay. Is that your view --I do not wish to say that I consider the Agents themselves are over- paid; I do not wish to imply that, as think that at times they have done a great deal of special work which is not done by an ordinary Civil Service Depart

ment.

1710. (Sir Francis Muwatt.) I understand from you that officers occasionally pass to and fro between the

Service of the Crown Agents and the service of the Colonial Office?--Only passing to the Crown Agents' Office; I do not recall at this minute anyone who has been employed in the Crown Agents' Office being brought in here, with the exception of Sir Montagu Ommanney himself.

1711. (Mr. Gibson.) As well as two secretaries, Messrs. Keith and Ezechiel-They both came into this office first.

1712. (Sir Francis Moralt.) I said: “Posy to and · fro"-They both passed an examination in the first instance into this office. I know that people objected to Mr. Keith at the time, and I talked to Sir Montagu Ommanney about it and said I thought it desirabi that it should be done if possible. When I say that yo one has ever been brought into this office from the Crown Agents' Office, I mean in no case where the Crown Agents have appointed an outsider who has not come to them through the Civil Service.

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1713. (Mr. Gibson.) Is it not the fact that under present cotulitions in the case of either Mr. Keith or Mr. Eachiel, supposing they start in the Colonial Office and ultimately go back, their services while in the Crown Agents' Office do not count as vice fowards penston? If you wished the Art of 1992 applied to constituting this fund a public fand, that service would be allowed to count and to cound as continuous.—Yes, but for that period th pensions would be apportioned against that fund, and ihat was contemplated at the time the art was time i consideration. Di-nimber Sir Francis Mowatt coming to see the late Sir Robert Mendo about it. but when ti Art was passed for some reason or another it was never done, and I attributed it to the fact that the Crown Agents considered themselves independent of other públic departments.

1.

1714. With regard to the assessment of pensions, I gather that you are in favour of more regular scales of pay with definiw increments and the calculation of pen- sias on the Civil Service scale: --I was always dies tinetly in favour of the calculation of the pension the salary, but I thought there was a good deal to be sand for the system under which the Crown Agron were assigned, say, a sum of £10,000 and an establish- iment of say 40 cleaks appointed, and they had the distribution of that sum

great extent. gave the Crown Agents greater power to deal with their clerks. With regard to the scales of salary and toguiar increments, therefore, I should not bin favour of altering that to a great extent; I would give the Crown Agends much greater elasticity in deal- ing with their onlinary staff of clerks than I would give to the Head of an ordinary Civil Service department.

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1715. As to the actual e mpntation of pensions, are they based on what is called the Civil Servics rul, the three years average?—They were to be.

1716. Because I gather from you, and it is in evi- dence, that the Crown Agents had liberty to arrange rates of salary at will, provided they did not exceed the maximum- do not think they have ever attempted to raise a clerk's salary in the last three years of his time in order to increase his pension.

1717. But to that extent there is that difference between the Civil Service rule and the Crown Agents that they can put the salaries up at will, and they would be calculated on the last three years! Yes, I remember où two or three occasions the Agents applying to the Secretary of State for authority to spend more on salaries, and they gm rally then said that they contemplated rais.

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