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19 June 1908.3

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. D. Rɛss, C.V.O., C.LE., M.I“.

partiality and position as the Colonial Office is an un- fortunate intervention.

608. With regard to the last question under our terms of reference, how far the Crown Agents' Offico can, or ought to, be brought into harm my with the principles governing the Civil Service, what do you say to that would begin by making them a miere department of the Colonial Office if you retain then.

609. Your considered view is that they ought to be brought into harmony with the Civil Servicë ?—Most certainly.

610. For the reasons you have given?—Yes.

611. (Mr. Leathes,) Do you think they could be re. cruited in the same way as the ordinary" Civil Service by open competition?—I should say so, certainly,

612 You think all these quasi-commercial fune- tions could be carried out quite satisfactorily by people of that class?--May I ask in what way the Crown Agents are more capable of carrying out com- mercial transactions than the ordinary civil servant?

613. I was asking you, because that is what it coines to, it not It comes to open competition if they are brought into the Civil Service, but you see no objection to applying that system to the Crown Agouts staff in general, excepting engineers, of course-1 should see none at all; they could have their subsequent training. I suppose there is gener- ally a Royal Engineer officer as one of the Crown Agents, and they would be excluded from the office if it was recruited in the ordinary way.

G1. It was not the heads but the staff I was re ferring to would like to see the heads brought into the Colonial Office in the same way, through the

Civil Servic

615. (Mr. Harris,) May 1, on the other haml, ask yent whether--because I gather from your evidence that you think it is the practical independence of the Crown Agents which is the objection- -the Crown Agents' Office very much on its present footing, hur brought more directly under the control of the Secretary of State, would, after all, meet your wishes equally -I think if it was brought immediately and directly under the Secretary of State it would remove the objection. They would be in a different position at one; in the first place you would not be expected to contract with them, would you ?

616. I fancy they would still be the Secretary of State's men of business in that matter, so that they would formally take the contracts as they did for the Foreign Office: but they always represent the Colony: the Secretary of State only comes in as the controlling power not only over the Crown Agents but at present iver all the Crown Colonis; the Crown Agents repre- sent the Colony or the Protectorate? In this Pro- tectorate whom do they represent ?

617. The general interests of the Protectorate? - Sex what a position that puts them in!

618. Represented by the Governor of the Protec- torate, who represents the Crown ?--What a position that puts them in ! Take a case like the bridge 1 was speaking about, and assume that we are to construct a railway according to a contract, that illustrates. I think, the impossibility of their position. Suppose we go to them, and say: "We do not think a bridge of this sort at all necessary." They say: “Oh, but the Governor of Nyasaland, on general grounds for the good of the Colony, thinks a bigger sort of bridge is necessary"; and we are then bound to build the bigger borudge for the govel of that Colony, not because it is necessary for the construction of the railway. which is what our contract was taken for. I think it illustrates very strongly the false position in which they are put.

618. Do you not think that the Governor of the Colony, who is responsible to the Secretary of State and is a

man, as you know, of high position and character, has speaking generally, a responsibility, which he is bound to exercise for the future of the Colony? Certainly, at the expense of the Colony or of the taxpayer in general, but not at the expense of

& contracting company.

1901, (81) Francis Mawatt.) Unless the requirement forms part of the original contract between the com- pany and the Colony?This contract?

121, I am not speaking of this or any particular contract.--Certainly, that is so, but my point was that this bridge did not form part of the contract.

629. (Chairman.) We have come to the end of your recommendations, and we find an interesting point wo have not quite minde clear. We understand quite clearly that you think in every way it would be better if the Crown Agents' Office formed part of the Civil Service, whether a department of this office or not?—- Yes.

623. But as you were just concluding it was pointesi out that the Crown Agents act as agents for the Crown Colonies. You think that is an anomalous position, but surely that would still be the case if they were Civil Servants or a department of this office!

submit not, sir, because as Mr. Harris put it to me-supposing they did not exist and were not the ngents of the Governor of Nyusalatud, we should have made our contract with the Colonial Office; it would have referred only to the railway, and if cir cumstances placed us in such a position that having a line on each side of a river the Colonial Offier said, "Now if you do not put up a bridge and connect them we will not give you a contract for the lower half." I do not believe there would have been any difficulty. There would not have been a Governor on the spot who would be able to advise the Crown Agents that by the unanimous opinion of two of our com. petitors in business, and the only other two, a bridge of a certain class was necessary.

624. But he would advise the Colonial Office?—Yes, and the Colonial Office wanbi say: "This may be very necessary for this country, but it is not a proper charge upon the funds of these gentlemen who are making this railway."

625, (Sir Ralple Moor.) After all is sail and done, was not that question of the bridge, as a matter of fact, dealt with by the Colonial Office and not by the Crown Agents? It was the Crown Agents who pushed the point for Nyasaland that we should put up this expensive 100-feet span in case the fleets of our com- petitors the tall masts of their ships, and so on-- should be impeded in their progress tip this magni. ficent river, which is dry for nine months of every year and contains a trickle of water for the remaining

three.

626, (M. Harris) Parlon me breaking in there, but I think in fairness to the Crown Agents I should say that do not think the Crown Agents pressist that any more than the Colonial Governor did and also certain gentlemen in Scotland, who have a very great interest in other parts of the Protectorate ?--İ know them.

627. I only say that in fairness to the Crown Agents. I am not attacking the Crown Ageins: 1 was asked how this system worked, and I think this will throw a light upon it-even if I do not make my point. The Crown Agents in making this con tract make it on behalf of the Governor of Nyası land. I would not wish a better illustration. There you have a solitary official amongst half a dozen Europeans, and the only people he sees morning, noon and night. the men who arrange for his comfort, his journey up and down the river, who convey his boxes and do everything for him, are the representatives of my company and its competitor. He, when

point

like this bridge arises, has to advise. I do not call tha the lit possible tribunal to advise as to what kink of bridge should be imposed under this contraet una connany which has got a bit of line on ex* side of a river, and is absolutely bound to make a bruge, and wants to make the cheapest bridge it can subject to the proper requirotnents of the ease. I sub mit that it is a most admirable illustration of the un- desirability of the Crown Agents entering into these

contracts

829, (Sir Francis Moraft.) Is it not rather an illustration that it is not desirable that the Governor- of Colonies should be allowed to enter into contracts' --I would not say that, because you see there was no Governor when this contract was entered into; there know why this change from Secretary of Stat to Nyasaland Governor has taken pined; it will be

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. D. Rees, C.V.O., C.LE., M.P.

known at the Colonial Office, but it was not suggested in the beginning that we were in any way dealing with a mere administrator by whatever name of Nyasaland.

320. It is very important to get this clear. When your company made the second contract it was with The Governor of the Colony ?-Not by our wish.

630 Never mind whose wish; as a matter of fact the contract which you say has been rather see only pressed was made with the Governor of the Colony?--- That is so; we received from Messrs. Sutton, Omman- By and Rendall a form of contract which was made with the Governor of the Colony and we had to accept

it.

631. Just so; that is what I say the contract is Letween you and the Governor of the Colony, and you lave pointed at that the Governor of the Colony nder those circumstances neressarily has his sources of information both narrow and to a certain extent affected?—In a Protectorate like Nyasaland.

32. Ther-fure your arguments appear to me to go the fact that the Governor of such a Protectorate or the Commissioner of such a Protectorate is not au other who should be allowed to enter into contracts for a railway in that colony ?--I certainly would sub- mit that people, for instance, who are spending a million of money in a Protectorate like' that "are entitled to a contract with the Secretary of State.

33. I only want to point out that the objectious as understand them are not against the Crown

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(19 June 190M,

Agents' proceedings, but are against the decisions of the Governor of the Colony whose information vas necessarily affected by the people among whom he liselt regard to that particular aspert of the matter, yes, only so far as it touches that point.

631. But that particular aspect of the matter is the making of the contract and insisting on the 1-ris under it? Yes, but what I rather had in my mind was, the conditions being of this narrow and com tractes character out there, and they being projected upon the conscience of the Crown Agents here, we are cut off further and further from the lofty impartiality of the Secretary of State,

635. Pardon me, the carrying of the Governor's boxes up and down the river and so on was by your competitors? And ourselves; we are equally anxi us to carry His Excellency's boxes,

636. But it is really very important, and the upshot to say mind of your opinion is that in the sialler colonies, at all events, public works should be con- tracts for in no case by the Governor of the Colony, but by the Colonial Office or some other Department of the Government - I do indeed think

637. (Chairman.) Is there any further statement you would like to make?--I do not think so, éxcept to be that my evidence will be treated with much discretion. I really feel that it is difficult to say where it has ceased to be hypothetical, and where it has assumed a positive character.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. C. V. BELLAMY (Director of Public Works. Southern Nigeria), called and examined. 499, (Chairman.) The Committee are

very much obliged to you for coming to give evidence before us briefly on the subject of Crown Agents. You know the terms of reference, which were sent to you?-Yes.

6:29. It has been explained to you that we want to know, broadly, what is done and how it is done, and we should be glad if you could give the Committee any in- formation by making a statement, bearing in mind that what we particularly want to find out is how far it wottld be wise to make any alteration in the status of the Crown Agents' Office, so as to bring it more into harmony with the Civil Service?-That is in connec tion with the Engineering and Indent Branch?

640. That is what you understand about 7-Yes.

1. We know who you are, broadly, but what par trcalar experience have you had I have had a good deal of experience of the Colonies, having served already in four, as the Committee may know, and it has occurred to me frequently in the past that there has been something in the nature of a want of synt pathy between the Crown Agents' Department and the various Colonies. I do not say that that is the result of an absence of a desire on the part of the Crown Agents to sympathise with the Colonies, but I think it arises almost entirely from a want of knowledge of the peculiar conditions prevailing in the different Colonies.

642. Which Colonies do you speak of? I have a list of the places where you have been, and 1 am sure the Committee would like to know?- ain generalising at the present moment. You see, the conditions under which civil engineers work in the Colonies are very dif- ferent to those prevailing at home, and I do not think it can be expertes of a Civil servant who has never be abroad that he should understand the conditions under which we work in the Colonies. These conditions vary in each Colony-that is my own experience-and therefore the only remedy appears to me to be to em- ploy some one in the Crown Agents' Office who has had experience of the Colonies. In the case of con- sulting engineers and inspectors, it is particularly sary that the inspecting engineer should know himself precisely what is required in the Colonies. There is quite a number of civil engineers who have served in the Colonies and are now on pension-ither prematurely retired, on the ground of ill-health. or something of that sort--and I should say that a great dent of good would arise from the engagement of one or more of these men as inspecting engineers.

I

643. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You mean as inspecting engineer in the particular Colony in which his ex- pertence has been gained? You said that the condi- tions of work vary with every Colony?-Quite so. think it will be found, generally speaking, that almost every Colony is represented on the pension list, and when any engineering stores, or plant, or machinery are required for a particular Colony it would be worth while to engage, as inspecting engineer, a retired officer of that Colony, and if he had the requisite capa city and experience he might be paid about the same amount as a consulting engineer gets.

GH. Do you say that you could find on the pension list men of full vigour and energy and knowledge of their profession, whom you could send out せい」 the Colonies, from which they have been retired because they were no longer well or quite efficient ?-No; I do not say that, sir. I am referring to the case of an in- specting engineer whose duties are confined to Eng- land. There is a number attached to the Crown Agents' Office, and these inspecting engineers inspect the stores in England; they do not go abroad.

645. You are referring to stores; but not public works, like bridges, or railways? bridges, and so forth,

Materials for

646, (Sir Ralph Moar.) The inference is that the class of material that the Crown Agent is sending out to the Colony is not as good as it might be 7-That is rather a sweeping statement to make. Sometimes we have very serious complaints to make. At the present moment I cannot quote any particular instance, but ! think you will know that there have been complaints in the past with regard to stores and materials sent out by the Crown Agents. I do not say that is any bely's fault particularly, but I say it arises from want of local knowledge.

647. (Mr. Harris,) There have been complaints. Can you instance any case where the Crown Agents have not managed to justify their action, and to show that, after all, the goods they sent out were the best- suited to the occasion ?--No, i cannot tell you a case of that kind on the spur of the moment. I feel certain that the Crown Agents, as I have already indicated, and their staff always do their best, but that best is governed by circumstances over which they have no control.

648. (Chairman.) And the circumstances you speak of which militate against their efficiency in your view

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