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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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19 June 1908.]

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CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Mr. J. D. Ries, C.V.O., C.L.E., M.P.

there is no particular reason why, as you have got a commercial "firm spending money, they should” not make it up to the stamfard of the North Western Railway, for instance-why not?

526. The North Western Railway is not the railway that was taken as the standard, was it? No, it was the Mafeking-Buluwayo Railway, but in the second contract again, that standard was altered for the lower line,” We found we had to make 39 miles of line befure we could begin to make our line under the first contract because of this condition of the river, and we obtained eventually a contract from the Colonial Office for the lower 30 miles of line, in addı- tion to the original contract line, and in the con- tract for the second line 1 notice (and it throws con- siderable light upon what Mr. Harris has saidi), wo are required to provide “an efficiency similar to any completed portion of the Mafeking Bulawayo Railway in 1902. so that that leaves-it in their power to pick out a lttle bit close to a large town, or some very well-constructed portion which may have no par- ticular relation to the greater part of the line as the staylard to which we should attain. I should claim unier this that there was some sort of general standard of efficiency, or inefficiency, or whatever it may be, in the Mafeking-Buluwayo Railway to which we were entitled to work in general, whereas this second con- tract, binding us to an efficiency similar to any com- pleted portion, seems to me a large advance,

627. Still, that condition was within your know- ledge when you accepted the contract-Yes, but we were in such a hole, what could we do? We were bound to have the contract. We had made this 30 miles of line, and we were bound to have a contract for it. It lay on the ground there under no satisfac- tory title, and although it is all very well to say we did it with our eyes open, we were absolutely compelled by circumstances to make it at first and to accept the contract offered afterwards.

528, I only wanted to understand clearly, but that was the case?—Yes.

529. Did your company protest against that stricter definition -We interviewed Mr. Härris sev ral times. 530, (Mr. Harris.) Pardon me, but were those words in the contract —I think so.

31. They were not in the contract when I last saw it? They have got in somehow, and if su that is a very significant circumstance. It was really done by Messrs. Sution Ommanney and Rewall ander the immediate orders of the Crown Agents. (3r. Harris stated that the last time he saw the contract was before it was signed; he did not see it actually signol, but it was ler his care until it was ready for signatur.)

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732, (Chairman.) Messrs. Sutton, Ommanney and Rendall are solicitors to the Crown Agents?—Yes, You asked ine, Sir, if I might mention these matters, and if you think it is material that I should refer to the standard exacted, it would be desirable if I men- tioned it at all that I should mention some other mat- ters. but I hope you will understand that i am not ding this by way of making a complaint against the Crown Agents; I am asked for information, and in reply to questions I endeavour to give it.

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533. Quite so.-I brought a little memorandum with me, and, for instance. in formation widths of the line we were called upon to do more than we thought neces sary, and we did it. In regard to ballast we are asked to provide 20 cube yards a chain, and we think 15 was done on the Mafeking:Bulawayo railway. In regard to rolling steks. chilled cast-iron wheels were objected to, and we put on a more expensive class of wheel. Then, in regard to the superstructure of bridges, wo made them of a somewhat heavier kind than we cursives thought necessary. Another matter, we were a great deal pressed about, was providing masonry abutments to all the girder bridges. We could not build masonry there, and we could not keep Europeans alive there between the coast and the foot of the hills. Our death rull has been something absolutely appall ing; it is a painful thing to have any connection with this enterprise an account of the terrible sickness wo have suffered from; practically we have a double staff guing the whole time, and to have stonemasons making every little drain and abutment and every little bridge over a broken country like that has been absolutely impossible.

534. (Mr. Bailey.) What have you made them of ?-- Trestles. Then as to the land widths, we are told they will not agree to 100 feet on each side, and the Mafe king Bulawayo people have 150. I daresay wo will get justice in this matter, but it rather points to a higher idea of standard on their part than we think is right. They objected to the strince formation which our engineers proposed, and these are most eminent engineers, our own engineer being Sir Bradford Leshe and our consulting engineer Sir Douglas Fox. Then they objected to hand-packed stone drains which we thought were suficient. They objected to brickwork laid in clay and lime plaster, and I might mention that the cathedral of Blantyre, the cathedral being the typ of what is permanent and important, is built of the sume” material. Perhaps of all matters the one in which we have suffered "most is delay in regard to the Chiromo bridge.

535. (Chairman.) This is a point not of undue seve- rity bui of delay -We think as regards the bridge. certainly we have been called upon to do much more than was needed. We have always protested, but wo were in such a position that we were bound to make the bridge, because the want of that bridge has added 5s a ton to our expenses. As we could not get what w thought were fair terms an inquiry was held out there, and it was stated there was a unanimous opinion. that there should be 100 feet opening spun at Chiromo, although I believe at Calcutta, on the Hooghly, it is about 40. In the first place, we were called upon to make a high level bridge with approaches of half a mile on each side of the village. It is the fact that we were asked for a high level bridge thare with half a mile approach on each side, and with a headway that such ships as use that place can go under it with out taking down their funnels. This bridge would have cost us £20,000 extra, and we had to fight the case there. We were told that other firms out there wanted this kind of bridge. There is one other firm there that has ships upon this river, and that is our competitor and our only e mpetitor in business. Obtly enogh there was a unanimous feeling that a bridge of this class shrubl be put up.

538. (Sir Francis Moratt.) I must point out that the opinion must have been unanimous, if there was only "one?--I think there were two voices,

537. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Was not really the question there the question of the future as to keeping open the waterway-that you were not to build a bridge that would be an obstruction to water transport; that was the principle, was it not?—Yes.

538. It was to let these people through, but it was a question of the principle of maintaining an open waterway for water-borne produce on the river?—But there would be no difficulty in getting the barges through. You do not want 100 feet opening to get Larges through.

539. I am talking about the general principle, and that was to have a bridge that should allow of an open waterway? That is so, but we maintain that a very much simpler and altogether different struc ture was all that was necessary. I believe this bridge will be a monument of the administration of the Crown Agents in Central Afrin, but that it will ever be requires for traffic at ami above Chiromo I regard as absolutely out of the question. I must to ask any hely else's opinion, but I cannot believe that it will l necessary. We believe that once the railway is opened navigation above this place, except by barges, will be almost extinct. The delay in this matter has delayed the construction of the railway; it has caused us to keep on this enormously expensive staff which has a duplicated all round on account of the terrible death and sickness of which Mr. Harris coul tell you; and it has cost us at least is, a ton extra on our transport, and in point of fact it has been the most serious matter of the whole enterprise. We think it is altogether beyond the requirements of the We were in such a position that we had to accept 21; we were between the--- or shall I say be personality. tween an overwhelming element, and an overpowering

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540. (Mr. Leuthrs.) Did you get any concessions?→→→→ As regards the bridge?

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. D. Rers, C.V.O., C.LE. M.P.

541. Yes? We did not muku it at its worst, but we had to make it with Dhi feet initing spun- very

All our material for another class of Apensive,

bridge which we approved. I may say, was at sike; we bad sent it all out.

542. (M). Harris) Just coming back to the Crown Agents there, as a matter of fact you did carry your View rather against the Crown "Agents?---To" some extent we did.

513. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Was that by conversa- tion or in correspondence!-By interviews; I think Mr. Harris was rather our good angel in that respect ; I spoke to him and saw Mr. Churchill and Lord Elgui kuself, but Mr. Harris knows about the whole thing.

544. (Mr. Harris.) I think you met both Lord Elgin at Mr. Churchill !—Several times. I may say that our consulting engineer, Sir Charles Metcalfe, when he has inspected matters, has thought everything very good and very well done, and superior to the standard with which we were, expected to comply, but being business men we do not want to do things any Standard superior to that with which we my hand to comply. It is our business to do the thing as cheaply as we can consistently with that standard, and we do not think that that has been quite what we have been allowed to do.

545. (Mr. Gibson.) What would have been the differ- ence supposing the Crown Agents in this particular case livllen a part of the Colonial Office as in the case of the India Story Department which is a branch. of the Imin Office. You have had the same form of contracts with that Department, and you had the right of appeal to the Secretary of State who might have modities these conditions. Has not the sate, course practically been carried out in this case? You appealed to the Colonial Office, and Lord Elgin has met your representations.

Abi, (Chairman.) Before you answer I was going to put that question, and I have made a note of it with This profi the point in all the very int resting evidence you have given to us is that you have had very exceptional difficulties to contend with ?---Most exceptional.

547. And that the Crown Agents have been unlaly severe am not making that charge; I am studi- only endeavoring to avoid making it.

51. Still that would be the point; whilst studiously avoiding making any charge, and we will not even use the word harsh," they have been unduly severe con- sulering the exceptional difficultas you have had. How do you suppose that you would have been likely to do better if, instead of the Crown Agents there had been a spartment of this offies, as in the case of the India OftiesIf I might answer one question by asking another. I would ask every gentleman present, amongst whom are distinguished "officials, whether it is quite the same thing to be under anylly immediately, or under somelasly else under that person, and whether it does not make all the difference in the world. b cause practically the person with whom you have to deal is the person with whom you have to deal in the first instance, Business cannot be conducted by a course of perpetual appeal; it depends on the spirit and the manner in which it is conducted by the per- on with whom you are immediately doing business.

319. Your answer to the question is that you would un lubelly prefer to deal direct? We should un- doubtedly prefer it

550. That is the whole point of your evidence, up till now?-- may say I have no prejudice against etheials or departments; 1 have belonged to them all my life, and that confirms me in my opinion that the fower oflicers al departments you have between your self and your work the more likely it is to go on well, and the loss opportunity there is for any precon- evet ulea, prejudice, pre-possession or feeling to grow up in any one of the links of the chain.

551. Could you give more detailed reasons fur believing that if the Crown Agents Office were a department of this office or a Department of State strictly within the Civil Service, it would be easier for you to get things done with mon dispatch and with less severity think in practice you cannot

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get away from the Crown Agents under the existing System. Take the case in point. Suppose & company in the City or anywhere else had a contract with the Crown Agents in the past few years, some point would arise in regard to which they were not satisfied with the Crown Agents, and they would come to the Colonial Office to whom would they come ! To the Perman na Under-Secretary, who hail for many years

prst ban a Crown Agent. That has been the position for yenes; the "Chief Crown Agent became The Under-Serretary of State for the Colónies. That would rather seem to impair the value of the appeal, supposing the business could be carried on by con- tional appeals. Then, supposing the contractors stuck to their guns and there was a bigal point at stake, as wombi v ry they happen, the r forence would be made fo Moss, Sutton, Ommaney and Rendall, and their opinion would be taken on the ease. It would not be quite easy for these contractors to get away from the Crown Agents and their caburagi – a little diflicult.

552. (Sir Francis Maratt.) In the instance you have just given us of your company's contract, 1 understand that you saw Mr. Harris and the Secretary of State? Yes, but most of the business had to be dom with the Crown Agents.

553. Are you speaking now, or rather indicating.

# I understood, that under the existing state of things, an appeal from the Crown Agents was an appeal to Crown Agency in another form? Yes, and I would adhere to that. because Mr. Harris, kind and considerate and capable as he is, if I may say so when he is present, is yet a subordinate of the Permanent Unier-Sceretary" for the Colonies,

554. Or, indeed, of the Secretary of State - And of the Permanent Under-Secretary of State, who has a far mor pruanent power than the Ser tary of State It is possible in regard to these matters that his lund may be far heavier than that of the Secretary of State. I think that would be a very arguable pro position.

555, (Chairman,) But your particular objection has refers new to the past? I am striving not to make any objections.

55. The Permanent Under-Secretary of State in that case had previously been a Crown Agent! T gave that as a pertinent instance of how difficult it would have been to get away from the Crown Agents

an appeal.

557. But if that were not the case, as inded it is not now, would you still have the same objection to the Crown Agents -Not the same objection, "the same in kind but not in degree. The objection would be that you could not carry on business through appeals, and also that if this outside Colonial Office exists, if a little Colonial Office exists at the door of the big Culs nial ice to advise the big Colonial Office, the big Colonial Office must take its advice, and would in must cases; and again. supposing that a company came here and pursuaded Mr. Harris, the Permanent Under- Secretary, and the Secretary of State that their view was correct. I still think. with my experiences of off- cial work, or any other work. that the opinion they expressed, supposing they were good enough to say: This is a difficult contract, and you must not be too hand upon these men." might get a good deal filteres down in going from this office to the other office an·| then going out to Afrien let us say,

Would it matter very much to the enginer out in Africa what was the expression of opinion by the Secretary of State in len den His bread and butter would not depend upon that he would depend upon the Crown Agents.

558. (Sir Ralph Moor.) When the contract was made you said you were not connected with the company?— When the first contract was made-that is so.

559. Were the present members of your Board con- nected with the company and responsible for the con- tract?--Yes.

560. And your Board is constituted of members who were members at the time that contract was made?- There is only one besides myself and the managing director now; he was there in the beginning, and I was going to make the suggestion that Sir Bradford Lalia, who has been working right through in this matter, and Mr. Campbell would, no doubt, both be

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