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12 June 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir E. BLAKE.

250. The principle upon which you go is that you are, subject to that approval, entirely responsible?— Entirely responsible.

257. And if you chose to award that gentleman not £240 but £100 a year you would be within your rights? -Yes.

258. (Mr. Harris.) Or £600 a year?-£000 a year we should have to justify, but for instance, if we gave a man less, equally the Secretary of State might say: Why do you give him less?" and we should equally have to justify it.

259 (Chairman.) You have no definite rules on the subject-No, we deal with each case on its merits.

20. (Sir Albert Spicer.) I think that is what I gathered with regard to your salaries; you have certain limits, but you take practically each case into consideration?-Yes, and if a man is exception- aily good we increase hit more rapidly than another man who is merely routine; in fact, it is the very essence of the office that the Crown Agents should be able to reward merit and to mark their sense of demerit.

241. (Mr. Harris.) Is it quite fair to say that the matter of pensions is absolutely in the Crown Agents' discretion, when I think I remember years ago the Crown Agents themselves suggested that they should be calculated upon the basis of the Civil Service pensions ?--Yes, but you must remember that was done at a time when the office was excessively poor. You must rememb.r that this office has grown from othing, and the first Crown Agent, Sir Penrose Juiyan. used to tell the story, 1 believe, that there was is. öd., or something like that, in the till when he took over the business, but it has grown from that into a very big conern. At first the office had very modest ideas, and the scale of estab lishment and everything was correspondingly modest, and in fact there was nothing to pay pensions with. But it has gradually grown, and 1 think it only fair tha: the staff should benefit by the success of the institution.

262. (Sir Ralph Moor.) While you base your scalo of pension on the Civil Service scheme the scale of pay is purely arbitrary and the scale of increment is purely arbitrary ?—No.

263. The Civil Service pension scale is a definite scale based on a definite rate of salary in the various classes with a definite increment, and moves on to a definite pension on a defined scale at a definite age. With the Crown Agents there is no scale and it is

purely arbitrary?There is a scale of salaries, but I have been hampered, and that has been one of my great difficulties, by the fact that we have got an insurance scheme for our staff, and most unluckily in that scheme a class of salaries was quoted; it has been a perpetual hamper to me because, instead of talking of them as class I., class II. and class III., they have been assigned certain definite rates of salary, which has been a difficulty in effecting the re-organisation of the office, and it is a question we shall have to bring before the Secretary of State. The scale, as laid down, is, "Members whose salaries do not exceed £300 per annum; members whose salaries exceed £300 but do. not exceed £450; members whose salaries exceed £450"; and it has been a great difficulty to me that practically those have been the scales.

264. In your re-organisation of the service you want to do away with that scale?-I desire that class I. should be heads of departments, class II. deputy heads, class III. section heads, and class IV. the rank and file.

265. And you do not want any definite scale of salaries?—No, because it may from time to time be necessary to alter these scales,

266. And then in connection with the increments you want them to be purely arbitrary, according to deserts?--Yes.

267. But you do want a definite scale of pension based on the Civil Service scale?-No; we do not propose as a rule to give more than the Civil Service, but we do occasionally want to do so.

208. (Mr. Harris.) I gather that you rather claim a right to fix an arbitrary pension?--I do not know what you mean,

269, 1 rather gather that you yourself do not claim to be tied; personally, as the Crown Agent, you claim not to be tied by any scale of pensions 1-I claim that it is entirely within the discretion of the Secretary of State to give a pension of any amount he likes to the Crown Agents.

270. (Sir Ralph Moor.) In your application here you have quoted a scale, the pension which under Ordinary circumstances we should award him"; i presume that would be according to the scale?-That is according to the Imperial Service.

271. Do you want to adhere to that in your re- organisation?-Unless there were anything exceptional, that would be the principle.

272. You would like that to be the basis but with the power to recommend a difference under excep tional circumstances?--Yes.

273. (Chairman.) It is all laid down. Nothing has happened subsequent to this, has there? The Crown Agents wrote a letter reviewing the correspondence as to their power to increase or decrease the salaries of their staff, and they proposed, and Sir Michael Hicks Beach agrees, that they should be at liberty to assign to their clerks such amounts as they con sidered desirable in salary so long as the gross amount authorised on account of salaries was not exceeded and was not distributed among a different number of clerks than the authorised number?-Yes.

274. And then "that no salary exceeds £800"; I do not know whether that still obtains?-We havo one at the present time.

275. "And that they were not to make any changes in the general organisation of the Department without having first obtained the sanction of the Secretary of State"; that is so, is it not?--Yes.

276. That is how the matter now stands. You have complete power to raise or lower people's salaries, to give them a high pension or no pension at all, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State? That 19 so, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State.

277. And your practice is to follow the rules of the Civil Service?-Unless there are exceptional circum-

stances.

278, (Mr. Gibson.) Both as regards definite incre ments and as regards pension -Not increments; we do not concern ourselves about the Civil Service in the least, and we give what we consider a fair increment. For instance, we are giving for these fourth-clame clerks the same increments as are being given in the Civil Service.

279. (('hairman.) Before we pass to the general question, have you any book which you give to your staff when they first join showing the conditions of pay and emoluments, the same as Army-No, we have not, and one reason for it has we have in the been this (I have thought of it very often), you must remember that we are so much criticised that a book of that kind would have immediately got out, and it would have been made a basis for attacking us.

No; the charter for our fourth class is that Minute I 280. There is no printed document of that kind?— have read to you and handed in; that is their charter, and there is no charter as regards the others.

281. Will you state your general view, which I think you stated with some emphasis to me, quite frankly and freely, as to whether the Crown Agents' Office can be brought into harmony, and ought to be brought into harmony, with the principles governing the Civil Service?-I have jotted down the heads of my evidence, and I will read them, with your per mission. The Crown Agents have been stated in Par- liament not to be Civil servants, and their staff not to be Civil servants, and that the Crown Agents are responsible for the adequate discharge of their duties. This exactly represents the view of the Crown Agents, and they do not see how the principle can be departed from without destroying their personal responsibility. Two courses are open: (1) To turn the office into a Government office; (2) to leave the Crown Agents' responsibility as at present, subject to the obligation which already exists that they are required to justify to the Secretary of State any action on their part which may be challenged. The true test of the office

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE.

has always been and should continue to be the manner in which it carries out its work." Then I refer to these various inquiries that have been held upon us; they were all complete vindications of the manner in which the business of the Crown agency has been conducted. The Treasury have repeatedly repudiated any responsibility for the Crown Agency, and this position has been accepted by the Colonial Office and the Crown Agents (and Sir Francis Mowatt, who is a member of your Committee, will particularly appreci ate that point). The Crown Agents are convinced that in the interests of the efficiency of their office it is not desirable that it should be turned into a Govern- ment office. They do not desire it themselves, neither do the senior meinbers of their staff generally. They recognise that the Crown Agents practice of giving promotion solely by merit is in the interest of the efficient members of the staff. There is ground for believing that such a change would be highly unpopular with the Colonies, some of whom are alrenly disposed to regard the Crown Agents as to closely identified with the Colonial Office. and hence too independent of the control of Colonial It is essential, for the efficiency of

governments.

the office, that the Crown Agents should have the saine absolute power over their staff as any private business organisation, and that the staff should realise this, and that the security of their tenure depends on good work and loyalty. The system of appointing the staff by competitive examination would be destructive of the strict discipline which is neces- sary for the maintenance of the efficiency of the office. The lower-grade clerks (class IV. and copyists) re- cruited from the Civil Service Commission have in prac- tive proved less loyal than those recruited direct by th Crown Agents, and have been disposed to give themselves airs. The Crown Agents consider. that it would be extremely detrinental to the efficiency of the office if the Trade Union spirit manifesting itself in the General Post Office were to be allowed to estab- lish itwlf in their office. The Crown Agents are unable to guarantee security of tenure to their staff. T has been repeatedly laid down by the Secretary of State that the salaries and pensions of the Crown Agents and their staff are dependent on the income of the office proving adequate. Recently the work of the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies was thrown upon the Crown Agents without warning and without their being asked whether they could undertake it. This necessitated the immediate increase, to a large extent, of the staff. The work has now been removed for political reasons, and the Secretary of State has left to the Crown Agents the responsibility of the re dundant staff, and has declined to support their con- tention that work to pay for that staff should be left with them. Similarly, the Secretary of State night at any moment ruin the office by deciding that the larger and more important Colonies should be allowed to have separate agencies of their own. The Crown Agency is absolutely self-supporting, and inde pendent of Parliament, and is unique in its position. It does work for the Colonial Office and the Govern tent of this country for which it is in no way paid. The French Gavernment have repeatedly sent missions to this country to inquire into the organisation of the Crown Agency. Last summer the French Minister of the Colonies. M. Milles-Lacroix, accompanied by the Chief of his Cabinet. paid the office a visit of

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[12 June 1908.

inspection of some hours" duration. The French mis- sions have always ended with an expresssion of their desire to see established a similar institution at Paris, but fear has been expressed that the French love of red tape, and jealousy of giving anyone a free hand, will prevent any similar institution to the Crown Agency being equally efficient in France. The French Minister has, however, intimated his intention to try the experiment." I think if you could see the way il which these French people have spoken of us you would appreciate it. I do not think that you in the. Colonial Office appreciate what the Crown Agency does for you.

If ever the Colonial Office gets into trouble over a business the question is instantly hurled at the Crown Agents-"Send it to the Crown Agents. They are always expected to unravel every

mess into which the Colonial Office gets itself. 'In my time I have had the unravelling of all the claims con- nected with the Netherlands South African Railway Company, frightful work; and I have had many cases of the kind hurled at me. I do not think we get half the credit we deserve, and I think unless the Colonial Office believe in the Crown Agents they had far better abolish them.

282. But on the general question I again say that I hope you do not imagine that this Committee ap- proaches the Crown Agents in a hostile spirit; you set to tell us that the Crown Agents have no friends. --They have not; we stand to be shot at by everybody. 283. (Mr. Gibson.) You started by showing how you were whitewashed by the Colonies themselves three or four years ago?-So we were, but we are always being shot at.

284, (('hairman.) With regard to your memorandum which you have just read to us, before we conclude on the question of whether the staff should or should not be more assimilated to the Civil Service, your view is strongly against it 1-My view is that the efficiency of the office would be enormously diminished by any attempt to make it into a Government office.

285. They are, in a way, quasi ('ivil servants — That is a question which our clerks argue from time to time, saying that they are Civil servants, but I always jump upon that and say, "You are nothing of the kind you are our clerks.

286. The awarding of the Imperial Service Order to them, I think, plainly shows that they are, at any rate, quasi Civil servants ?—We do Government work, but we are not a Government office.

287. But in some respects you are treated as Civil Servants, because you are entitled to rewards which are strictly confined to Civil servants?--I do not know what rewards we get of that character.

298, I do not say that you get the rewards you ought to get at all. I do not know what rewards we get which are strictly confined to the Civil Service.

289. The Imperial Service Order is open to the Crown Agents' staff, and it is strictly confined, by the terms of reference, to the Civil Service.

290. To put it briefly, your view is that it should not be carried any further-That is so; the alterna- tives are either to turn the office into a Government office or to leave it to its present system of business.

The witness withdrew.

(Adjourned till Monday next, at 10.30 o'clock.)

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