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C.O.885

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Fourteenth Day.

9 May 1907.

IMPERIAL SURTAX ON FOREIGN

IMPORTS, (Mr.

Lloyd George.)

84

with imposing burdens on somebody else. However, I do not want to enter

into that.

Now, take the benefits to be derived out of it. I am certain there would be a very considerable benefit to the Empire as a whole; we would benefit, the Colonies would benefit, each individually, and the Empire, as a whole, would be the richer for it. I am confident of that. But the experience of Canada has proved that, while preference has undoubtedly stimulated trade between the Mother Country and the Dominion, the relative effect on Canadian export trade, as a whole, has been much greater than that on the export trade of the United Kingdom. The only advantage of this proposal, if I may say so, is this: I think that it is useful as furnishing almost with mathematical precision Mr. Deakin's ideas as to the proportion of the burden of Imperial preference which should be borne by the Mother Country and by the self-governing Colonies respectively.

Mr. DEAKIN: Pardon me, I do not think it has the slightest relation to it.

·

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: This is how it works. We are to contribute 4,500,000l.; the self-governing Colonies are to contribute all of them put together under 600,0001. I said yesterday we should have to put down 51. for every 11. the Colonies put down. I was wrong. We should have to put down 71. 10s. for every 1. provided by the Colonies.

Mr. DEAKIN: On this year's returns or what year ?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: On the returns of 1905. That I think is a very unfair and improper proportion for the Mother Country to be asked to bear. I mean that we should get half the benefit with sevenfold the burden.

Mr. DEAKIN: Who said half the benefit?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Preference invariably means that. It is a greater development for the trade of the Colonies than for ours. It would be an advantage to us, but not the same advantage to us as to the Colonies.

Mr. DEAKIN: Surely you are applying your reading of one particular preference by means of reduced duties in your favour, to cable services, mail services, and services of that kind undertaken each on its own merits. is no proportion and no connection one with the other.

There

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am perfectly certain of this; it would mean a good deal more for the trade of the Colonies than for us. I am not putting it as an argument against you, but on the contrary as an argument in favour

of it.

Mr. DEAKIN : A cheap cable service cannot mean just as much in value to a small dominion as to this country.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, it means that we should shift our tradé very largely, and I think that would be an advantage from the Imperial point

85

of view. Instead of trading to a certain extent with, for instance, the Argentine, we should trade with you. The benefit from the Imperial point. of view would be great. You would develop your trade enormously. All I say in a proposition of that sort is that you ought to contribute at any rate equally-I am not putting it higher than that.

Dr. JAMESON: You are going to take the trade by this proposition from the Argentine to the British Colonies. By so much as you transfer it, the less will be the money you will pay to this fund, the fund will be smaller.

Mr. DEAKIN: That is another point.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But to what extent ?

Dr. JAMESON: Exactly to the extent you say.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: To the extent of one per cent.

of manufactures would he practically unaffected.

Our imports

Dr. JAMESON: It is on the manufactures you introduced into this country.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, practically unaffected by a proposal of this kind.

Dr. JAMESON: That brings in the point that you will probably make them yourselves.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is quite a different question.

Dr. JAMESON: Not different, merely a bigger part of the same question.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But the proposition as it stands at the present moment, is that we should, if we prefer it, make an equivalent contribution instead of levying one per cent. on our imports from foreign countries. That means upon the present basis of our fiscal policy a contribution of 4,500,000l. as against 600,000l. by the self-governing Colonies. I do not think the thing is workable for a moment.

I must

Mr. DEAKIN: May I say that I am not altogether surprised at the nature of the reply, but entirely surprised at the line of argument which has been pursued. I have never heard more fallacious and transparently inapplicable comparisons applied from one set of circumstances to a different set of circumstances than I have just listened to. say that to attempt to take the consequences of alterations in our several schedules of duties as a measure of what you are to gain by some unknown and yet undefined mail service or cable service improvement, a reduction in canal dues, or anything of that sort, is perfectly futile. If such reasoning carries conviction to anyone, it certainly does not to me. I laid no stress upon the particular amount of 1 per cent. I took that from Sir G. Sydenham Clarke for the purposes of launching the proposition, as I thought I carefully explained. But the worst fallacy of all is, that because each country is to dedicate a certain amount towards Imperial purposes, therefore, of course, there must be some proportion either of population or other proportion between those amounts. There is no necessity for any proportion whatever in the amount paid by each to its fund while that fund remains, as I said, under the control of the people who raise it and

I 49146.

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Fourteenth Day,

9 May 1907.

IMPERIAL SURTAX ON FOREIGN Imports.

(Mr.

Lloyd George.)

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