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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

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Thirteenth Day.

8 May 1907.

TREATY

QUESTION. (Sir

Joseph Ward.)

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I

say, at

an appointment for me to see him, which I did. He expressed, as the instigation of the then Victorian Government, a doubt as to giving effect to the reciprocal treaty between South Australia and New Zealand. South Australians wanted it very badly, and we wanted it also, but there was one item in the tariff which came into conflict with the then Victorian sentiment. We proposed to make certain concessions on South Australian wine, and Victoria did not get that advantage in the treaty because it was a treaty with South Australia. As the outcome of the representations from Victoria, a temporary block took place in the ratification of the treaty between New Zealand and South Australia, and a question arose as to whether we had the We in New right to enter into such a treaty. Finally, it was assented to. Zealand have been in doubt, from time to time, in view of the fact that that was temporarily hung up, as to whether we could enter into a reciprocal tariff treaty, for instance, with another country, without the possibility of an over- riding treaty interfering with the subsidiary one, and like Mr. Deakin, for the Commonwealth of Australia, we want to know if we have the power, beyond all question, between our two self-governing countries to make arrangements for a reciprocal treaty without the possibility of some other outside country, saying: "This is interfering with our business," and it might be temporarily hung up. I feel satisfied that constitutionally the full right exists for us to enter into a treaty subject to concurrent treaty obligations.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: With other Dependencies within the Empire, that is the point.

In the matter of the Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is the point. overriding Imperial treaties, if you may term them so, with other countries, we recognise that we have to conform to existing treaties, but we want to be perfectly sure that in all future treaties which Britain may make with any foreign country, they make provision for the undoubted right that we have as self-governing Colonies to have a reciprocal treaty so long as it does not interfere with a treaty entered into between England and Germany, or France, or America if you like-we want to be perfectly assured by the British Government that we can make our treaty for our own purposes with a reservation meeting England's requirements in the original one. Allowing us to do as we think proper or best in our own interests, you carrying out your treaty with any other country if you like, but not binding us to conform to the conditions required for England. We want to have that position made perfectly clear, and I think it is a reasonable proposition to make and one that can be subscribed to.

For that reason I want to ask the Conference if they will affirm the resolution notice of which I gave on behalf of New Zealand, because we believe that treaties from the point of view of trade in the future are of material consequence to our country. We want to make them from time to time, and we do not want to start entering into negotiations for a treaty with the prospective fear that it may be inimical to some portion of an original treaty or a treaty about to be entered into by England, and we want to be perfectly sure we can do it, and that you will make provision in your treaties to allow us to do so if we find it for our interest.

Mr. F. R. MOOR: Sir Joseph, we are already making reciprocal arrangements with the different Colonies in our preference within the Empire without reference to anyone. You are doing it with us, and we are doing it with Canada, Australia, and yourselves.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, but I want to say that you have to remember also in connection with these treaties, that it is quite possible we may be

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brought up with a round turn by the British Government of the day. I am am speaking quite impersonally, not referring to any particular Government but the British Government of the day might say: "We have entered into an original treaty, or propose to enter into some treaty that may render it undesirable from England's point of view that should give effect to your "proposal." We want to have that position made quite clear. We did carry out our treaty with South Australia and we have carried out one with South Africa, but we want to be perfectly sure (at one time it was not so, but we believe it now is) that when the British Government are entering into a treaty with France, Germany, Russia, Japan, or anywhere else they shall have a condition inserted that that treaty is subjected to the right of the Colonies to enter into a treaty between themselves, and in the event of their loing so, the original treaty between England and that country is not to be used as a bar to carrying out that treaty. That is all we want, and for that reason I am desirous that my resolution should be put upon record and carried.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think we are all in sympathy with the resolution of Sir Joseph Ward. For my part I subscribe to the doctrine. How far it may be necessary now may be a question, because a change has taken place since 1895. In 1895, we were hampered with the treaty on until 1898. These treaties with Germany and Belgium which went provided that if any preferential treatment was given between the British Government and one of its Dependencies, that same treatment was to be allowed to Belgium and Germany. They had the most-favoured nation clause, not with regard to foreign nations only, but even between Dependencies within the Empire. These treaties have been renounced, and now, as has been observed by Mr. Moor, we are actually making treaties: there is one between us; but if there is any doubt, for my part I would be very glad to adhere to this doctrine.

Mr. DEAKIN Is there any objection to passing that?

Sir JOSEPH WARD: I do not think there is any objection to it.

Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: The opinions which have just been expressed have a bearing upon the question of the possible trade arrangements between the Mother Country and the Colonies. Those trade arrangements, it has been contended-I am not expressing any opinion upon the matter at all---might be entered into without detriment to the most-favoured-nation clause which is so essential to the position of England in the commerce of the world, and that contention has been founded upon this reason, that the Colonies stand in a special relation to us, that they are not to be treated as independent countries, and that therefore preference between the Mother Country and the Colonies is permissible without taking on the same footing as a preference to a foreign country, which would at once bring into operation the most- favoured-nation clause in our various treaties. That could not be contended any longer if the Colonies assume, which, of course, they are quite entitled to demand, that they are in the position of being fiscally independent units. The suggestion which has just been made may be an excellent one, I am not disputing it all, but it has a bearing upon the question of the application of the most-favoured-nation clause which should not be lost sight of.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not agree with that at all, Sir William Robson. The most-favoured-nation clause applies to foreign nations, but we have always contended, I think, and contended perfectly successfully, that We are the Colonies are not put in the position of foreign nations.

Thirteenth Day.

8 May 1907.

TREATY QUESTION.

(Sir

Joseph Ward.)