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Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: Yes, I think I did say, after what Sir Wolfe Barry said to you: "I do not think I quite apprehend, Sir Sandford Fleming, your dis- tinction between a division of traffic and the money that traffic represents." I think that is how I put it, as far as my recollection goes.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Then, assuming that an arrangement for a division of traffic would have such limited application applying, as it apparently would, to such a small proportion of traffic and, therefore, giving us such a very trifling advantage, why does not Sir Wolfe Barry see that and, therefore, favour a division of traffic rather than a pooling arrangement?

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: I think, his experience as Chairman of Telegraph Com- panies has made him familiar with pooling arrangements which he has with many other companies himself, and. I think, he honestly wants to act fairly both between us and him, and to suggest an arrangement which he thought would be fair to us both. I do not mean to say, he probably did not preserve the best for himself; we all of us do when we go into a bargain, but, I think, he was scrupulously fair and honest.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Another point then; you did not mention the matter of time; did you have any discussion as to the duration of any arrangements?

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: No; I have had no discussion-as to the duration of an arrangement, but Sir Wolfe Barry did at our first interview hint, that he thought such an arrangement should be long, and he afterwards wrote me a letter, giving me the dates of his arrangements with the Great Northern, I think, and the Indian Government, and those durations are very long; they exceed twenty years in me and Sir each case to run

now. But nothing has passed between Wolfe Barry that would be the least opposed to what I understand was laid down by the Conference that our arrangement should last for twelve years. I think, however, I should like to say this, that if we are going to surrender our ship, it will be either our interest to make the arrangement a long one, or to add some stipulation that we may resume our ship on the termination of that arrangement at some depreciation of price.

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Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Mr. Chairman, it is clear to me that the Con- ference is not in a position at this moment to pronounce an opinion as to these very important negotiations and proposals, and, perhaps considering the importance of the Pacific Cable Scheme and the great interest that the Governments have taken in it, it would be better if, before any final arrangement is made, any proposed terms were submitted to the respective Governments for their consideration. might be that a pooling arrangement would be satisfactory, it might be that it would be unsatisfactory, so much depends, in fact, it wholly depends, upon the details. I fancy that the Pacific Cable Board itself would prefer to be fortified with the approval of the Governments that they represent rather than take upon themselves the responsibility of binding this enterprise for years to conditions, that might, perhaps, be disappointing. We have had a very interesting and, I think, a very profitable Conference. I would, therefore, suggest that the decisions of the Con- ference on this point be in the direction of the Report, that we are prepared to enter upon a vigorous campaign unless arrangements are made which are satis- factory to the Governments concerned. In that way we would all be safe in agreeing to a resolution, because there would be no finality until the terms were submitted to the Governments we represent. I do not know how that would strike Sir Sandford.

Sir SANDFORD FLEMING: I am agreeable.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: I would be quite agreeable to delegating to the Board authority to negotiate. The Board would then report to the Governments repre- sented on the Board, and await the views of the respective Governments before con- cluding an arrangement. What do you think of it?

The CHAIRMAN: I always contemplated for myself that a reference to the Governments was essential before finality was arrived at, and I think that is embodied in the report which I have drawn up here as to the results of the Conference.

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Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Well, if it were put in the resolution to which Sir Sandford Fleming is taking exception--you have struck out the word "pooling," and then you read “a satisfactory agreement"; if you said "an agreement satis- factory to the respective Governments."

The CHAIRMAN: An arrangement satisfactory to the majority of the Govern- ments, I think, we would say.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: I would assume they would be unanimous; I hardly think it would be satisfactory to say, "satisfactory to the majority of the respective Governments."

Mr. PEMBER REEVES: We had better have the word "majority" for the sake of the Board.

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: I certainly contemplated throughout that nothing could be done finally without the sanction of the contributing Governments, but confess I did hope that my friends at this table and you, Sir, would give me some directions as to whether Sir Wolfe Barry's proposal was one on which I might negotiate, because I do not think I have any distinct authority to enter into such a negotiation on the lines which I have indicated to-day. I think I ought to have some authority from the Conference as to whether they are willing to abandon their ship or not.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: The Board will advise you on that point.

Sir SENCER WALPOLE: I mean from the Conference; I beg your pardon. Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Do you think the Conference should commit itself to details of any arrangement?

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: No, not details, but I think there is a considerable principle involved in the question of whether we are to abandon our ship or not, on which I think we ought to have some direction.

The CHAIRMAN: Yes.

Sir SANDFORD FLEMING: There is no written proposal from Sir Wolfe Barry, and would it not be well to have one, so that the Governments would be able to consider it?

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: Well, I suppose, Sir Sandford Fleming, that in a nego- tiation of this kind all the first steps take the course of feeling each other's pulses, and I personally hope that when it comes to a written proposal it may take a little more favourable shape than it does in these figures. I did not want to bind myself in writing hard and fast on this point.

LORD STRATHCONA : There is no reason, is there, why both propositions should not be considered by the Board. It rests with the Governments to say which they will accept or whether they will accept one or the other. You will come to know the mind of the Eastern Company better by discussing the whole question. Is it not so ?

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Sir Spencer points out that arrangements of this kind are not concluded in a day, and the Board is fully seized of the question, and is quite able, I think, to advise Šir Spencer as time goes on and negotiations proceed. I would view with a good deal of apprehension the Pacific Cable Board losing the control of its ship, but I am not sufficiently familiar with the practical working of the cable to know what bearing that would have on the fortunes of the cable. If you have to pay £200 a day, the £9,000 that you speak of would only pay for 45 days. You take, I suppose, 20 days to go from one end of our cable to the other. You might have to send a ship from Australia to British Columbia, might you not?

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE : Certainly. You see, I propose to set aside the £9,000 a year; I hope I am not going to have repairs every year.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Is there any repair ship at British Columbia ?

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE : Well, I do not know what may be in Sir Wolfe Barry's mind.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Is there now? Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: No, not now.

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