CO885-(16-18) — Page 236

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

61

Reference :-

C.O-885

17 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

14

of how you can save money upon the present, and to place that economy and that equitable arrangement upon à substantial footing.

Well, I fail to see altogether that that cannot be done by a discussion between the companies and ourselves. I quite appreciate what you say, Sir William, about not approaching them in the first instance, hat in hand, in any degree, but I think

may say already that I have been approached on the subject myself.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: That is the extent to which my remarks extend. At the same time it should be borne in mind that any agreements between the Board and the Companies may, in all probability will, come to an end. When that time arrives, be it soon or be it late, the situation ought to be such as would give the Pacific Cable its fair position in Australia, and if we allow the Agreement that has brought us together, the proposed Agree- ment, in the meantime, to extend to the whole area of Australia, we will find ourselves, when the pooling arrangement comes to an end, in a very bad position, and it would be the interest of the Eastern Extension, when it has fortified itself by that agreement to break up the pooling arrangement, to make a failure, and so on, because we will be helpless when it comes to an end, or else as Sir Spencer Walpole says, we will have to embark upon a very expensive campaign. If the desire is to enter bona fide into an honest pooling arrangement of a permanent satisfactory character they do not require to anticipate its coming to an end. By having that agreement there is no necessity practically in a place like Australia for canvassing for business more than there is for canvassing for post office patronage. We have our post offices all over the Commonwealth at which the public can hand in their cables. If there was no contest as to the division of business you would not require to have agencies opened all over; people would take their messages to these post offices the same as they do their ordinary messages at present, and if a pooling arrangement were made I presume the Eastern Exten- sion would discontinue canvassing for business; business would be allowed to come in in the ordinary way, as people use the post office, and they do not require any privileges under any agreement to be made. That is the way it strikes me."

The CHAIRMAN: I do not think what has been suggested excludes the possibility that that agreement should not be ratified; it might be one of the matters. I think we must remember that Australia has her views upon this matter; in a compromise we cannot expect it to be entirely in one direction.

The EARL OF JERSEY: I might say this that if the Commonwealth Agree-. ment is not ratified the New South Wales Agreement would hold good.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Yes, quite true. The objection that I take in limine to the proposed substituted Agreement is that it is nominally for a fixed term of years, but in substance it may be for ever.

The EARL OF JERSEY: Yes, I gather that.

SIP WILLIAM MULOCK: That is my point. If it was for a definite period of years, so that we could say we are setting off a privilege, a concession in perpetuity over a limited area for a concession over the whole area for a limited period we could then compare and reach the conclusion, but we are in the dark when we are handing over the future to the judgment of the Australian Government.

The EARL OF JERSEY: I quite follow that.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: And then if you read the Commonwealth debate in Congress upon this question you will find that in the Senate the motion to confirm it was not negatived on the merits, but simply in order that the different govern- ments might have an opportunity of expressing their views. If this Conference adjourns without expressing an opinion, or if it is slack upon the matter, the matter will again be presented to the Senate for consideration, and the argu- ment that the subject has not been submitted to the various governments will have disappeared, and doubtless the Senate may then ratify it; so that I feel that we are bound to express ourselves upon that point, and the conclusion I hope we will arrive at will be that if the Agreement had a satisfactory date when the con- cession would come to an end, I would be willing, I am sure the Canadian, Government would be quite willing to fall in with that arrangement for the sake

15

of ultimately getting the situation in a satisfactory position, and if it could be modified to that extent then we might be able to accept the substituted Agreement. Do you follow me?

The CHAIRMAN: Yes.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: And I feel it is necessary for us to express an opinion upon that point, otherwise the Congress will ratify that Agreement, and it will then be out of the power of the different governments to have any real influence in the matter. We will be told "You have handed the matter over to the judgment of the Commonwealth Parliament.”

The EARL OF JERSEY: Yes, I quite follow your line of argument.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: But again to refer to the Berne Convention, I think that under that Convention itself any two or more governments can have a con- vention of their own. It is quite competent I would think; one could easily see by the production of the Agreement. I would ask someone who is familiar with it-perhaps Sir Spencer Walpole-to say whether I am correct or not. The Australian Government, if it desires, and the Imperial Government if it desires, could enter into a Convention within the Convention, and modify those terms, could they not?

Mr. MERCER: I am afraid not; the Imperial Government is a party to the Convention.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Quite so.

•

Mr. MERCER: They have agreed to certain regulations; I am afraid they cannot go and substitute others.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: But I do not think that is the spirit of the Convention. Mr. MERCER: It is binding on the parties.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Until they choose to modify it themselves. Mr. MERCER: One object of the Convention is to secure certain uniformity of treatment in handling telegrams. One object which the Convention was founded to prevent is the existence of different regulations; each country having its own. At any rate we are one of the parties to this Convention; I do not know whether there is any loophole in the matter, but I should presume we are bound by it.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: And is it the same-I have not read the Convention— in all those terms with reference to the telegraphs, but are those provisions the same with reference to the post office mail matter.

Sir SPENCER WALPOLE: Not in that point of route.

Mr. MERCER: The carriage of mails is a different matter.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK; I am not speaking of the carriage of mails. But the general principle of the Berne Convention is that in the absence of countries, two or more, making a special arrangement between themselves, the general provisions of the Berne Convention prevail.

Mr. MERCER: Yes.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: But any two or more countries, parties to the Berne Convention, may themselves make a departure from any of the provisions of the Berne Convention in regard to matters between themselves. That is the rule, that is the law as regards the Post Office mail matter, and if it is the same with regard to the telegraphs then these two governments could make a convention within the Convention. It is not a question of loophole, there is express provision. However, if I could see it I could soon tell.

Mr. MERCER: Would your object be that the Post Office in this country should send by the Pacific Cable messages which, as matter of fact, are routed to go by the Eastern lines?

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: I should like to know what the legal rights would be supposing Australia and Great Britain, for example, having a cable between them,

1