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MR. GOLLAN: The Governor, the Officer Commanding, the Colonial Secretary, two Government Agents, the Treasurer, the Controller of Customs, and myself.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: Eight altogether?

MR. HAYLEY: Yes. I think it has been suggested by the Sinhalese that there should be unofficial members on that Council. Our report approves of that sug- gestion. We ask that there should be two unofficial" members on the Council, one a European, and one a Sinhalese. We ask for a European because we think it is important that the unofficial, as opposed to the official, point of view of the Europeans should be represented there.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: The Sinhalese, as I understand, want them to be necessarily members of the Legislative Council. Have you any views on that?

MR. HAYLEY: We deal with that in paragraph 11, to the extent that they have suggested in one of their memorials to your Lordship that they should be elected by the members of the Legislative Council.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: I am not quite clear as to that. I should think they probably would wish it. At any rate they wanted the unofficial members of the Executive Council to be taken from the elected members of the Legislative Council that, was quite clear-but I did not understand them to demand that they should not only be taken from the Legislative Council but elected by the Legislative Council. They did not say so yesterday.

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MR. HAYLEY: That is a matter which really concerns His Excellency more than us.

It seemed to us from a constitutional point of view it was essential that His Excellency should nominate his own advisers without being tied down to any particular category.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: You do not want to tie him down more than to this extent, that you want to have a certain number of seats on the Executive Council-two, I understand.

MR. HAYLEY: Yes. The Council which we suggest-of course it is merely a suggestion is in paragraph 14 of the report.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: Two unofficial members, one to be a European, and the other a Sinhalese?

MR. HAYLEY: Yes. We point out incidentally that the suggestion which has been made that the Executive Council should be reduced to two should not be considered. Two seems to us too small.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE Yes, that obviously is too small.

MR. HAYLEY: That is all we have to say on the subject of the Executive Council. Now turning to the Legislative Council, your Lordship will see in para- graph 7 we follow the same lines, that we accept the suggestion put forward that unofficial members as a whole should be elected and not nominated, with one or two exceptions, which I might return to later. That, I think, has been asked for by the Sinhalese very strongly, and we think that would be advisable.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: I think that is common ground.

MR. HAYLEY: Yea.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: On the other hand, the Sinhalese say that unless the elected members on the Legislative Council are in a majority they do not care about it.

MR. HAYLEY: We know that demand has been made, and we considered it at great length so far as we were able to. We looked at all the points that had been made. We discuss the suggestion in paragraph 8 at some length. At first it seemed to us rather a pleasant thing that there should be an unofficial majority. even from our point of view, but on considering it from all the aspects that we were able, we came to the definite conclusion that the Committee could not approve of that suggestion. Your Lordship will understand, of course, that this document is only a report by the Committee to its own Council.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: I understand that.

MR. HAYLEY: It is not in the nature of a draft to your Lordship. The Committee reported that they were unable to say how an unofficial majority could be set up in a Government of the nature of the Government of Ceylon, and how the Government could be carried on if it were set up. We know that in other

places, in India, for instance, there are to be certain Councils with majorities of that nature, but in India you have the supreme council, the Council of State. above the ordinary Assembly, while in Cevlon we have only one chamber. There are suggestions as to various safeguards, transfers of certain subjects, and so on. too complicated for me to go into, all of which we looked into, and we were of the unanimous opinion that they could not be satisfactory in Ceylon.

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THE SECRETary of StatE: This is what I am rather anxious to find out. What is it you are afraid of? What are you afraid that a native legislature with an elected majority would do to injure European interests? Is there anything definite that you have in your mind that you think they would go for which would be injurious, or is it merely a general feeling that they are not to bę trusted?

MR. HAYLEY: I do not know that we in any way tabulated or discussed what particular measures they were likely to pass. We have regarded it rather from the wider point of view that it is practically handing over the Government to the people. I am speaking, of course, of an unrestrained majority, whether it be a large majority or a bare majority, a majority by which they could pass definite legislation of their own, subject, of course, to the Governor's veto, which at present exists, and which, I take it, would still exist; but that veto, I under- stand, is not considered a method of dealing with undesirable legislation which should be exercised more than can possibly be helped. Apart from that it means simply handing over the whole of the power at once to the unofficials of the country, who, putting it from a general point of view, we do not think are yet ready to take that power.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: There is something to be said for your argument; but if you can vote them down on every occasion the representation is rather a farce.

MR. HAYLEY: It seems so at first sight.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: They have no power at all really. They can never, by any possibility, even when they are all agreed, carry anything, because you have only to put your flag up and the mechanical majority votes them down.

I am

not saying whether it is right or wrong-I am not arguing it at all-but it is very hard to pretend that it is in any sense popular government or representative government, or anything like it.

MR. HAYLEY: They have now considerable powers. The nominated members that there are at present, do exercise, by committees, by persuasion, by discussion, and even by their adverse vote or opposition, considerable influence on the pro- ceedings of the Government. But, my Lord, we looked at it from this point of view, too, that their chief claim is that they have no responsibility at the present time, or rather, that it gives them responsibility if they have a majority. Our answer to that is this: How does the unofficial get real responsibility if his out- voting the Government is never going to bring him into power? In England it is a check on minorities.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: That is quite true, but they would say: "Yes, we ought to have a share in the Government as Ministers." They probably would go that length themselves.

MR. HAYLEY: Yes.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: That is the next step.

MR. HAYLEY: A council in simple form merely consisting of an unofficial majority, that is to say, making the Government a permanent minority, might put the Government at any time into a difficult position. We do not know and we cannot say what measures might be brought in.-I do not know that we are frightened of any particular measure.

of

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: That is what I wanted to know. I see the force your argument on the general question. A great deal depends on local circum- stances. If, for instance, the elected native members were likely to be unanimous, and they had a combined policy, which policy was directed against European interests. or anything of that kind. if there was any sign of that, it would be very material in the consideration of this question.

MR. HAYLEY:I can point to one or two signs of that in this way. The real demand in the country is not for an unofficial majority, but for a racial majority. That has been admitted by the local Press. They want a majority, not of unofficials, but of Sinhalese over Europeans plus the officials of the country. And it has been even further indicated, though never, of course, so stated, by the memorial, which in December, 1917, was addressed to this officè, and which we have summarized in paragraph 5 of our report, in which they outline the Council they would like. That is a quotation from them. You will see a very significant factor in that. There are 12 official members and 21 elected members. Of those 21 your Lordship will see that there are two Europeans, one Burgher, and one Mohammedan--four. If you take those four from the elected members, who are

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all territorial members, your Lordship will find it is so constituted that the official members, plus Europeans, plus Burghers, plus Mohammedans, are to be in a minority of one-16 to 17. That is some indication that the desire is more for a racial majority than for an unofficial majority in the strict sense.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: What do you think about the Kandyans? Would they be the same in sentiment and tendency as the other Sinhalese? You assume the Tamils and the Sinhalese will practically always go together. Do you think the same is true of the Kandyana?

MR. HAYLEY: As a whole, I should say the real Kandyan is utterly opposed to any reform at all. He does not want it.

THE SECRETARY of State: A true blue Tory.

MR. HAYLEY: Yes, from all ranks of society, I believe. In Kandy itself, as you know, the vast majority of the population are low-country Sinhalese. It is a difficult proposition.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: I have been struck very much by the nervousness of the Kandyans about the whole thing, and I find it a little difficult to follow, because it is admitted that in certain districts Kandyans have a majority, and in the districts where they have a majority I do not know why they should not elect their own member, but they will not. Are they too stupid, or what is the matter with thém ?

MB. HAYLEY: I think they fear that they would not have a majority if the qualification is at all high. If the qualification for voting is at all high then all the shopkeepers, who are neither Moors nor low-country Sinhalese, will be excluded. THE SECRETARY OF STATE: I see that, but that could be met by what I myself suggested, that there should be a property qualification as well as an educational qualification, that the landowner, even though he be only a small landowner, should be entitled to a vote, even if the man happened to be illiterate.

MR. HAYLEY: It is, of course, difficult to formulate reasons, but there is a distinct antagonism and fear amongst them.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: It is evident that certain sections of the Kandyans are very much opposed. First of all, they are opposed to anything that could be called popular government; and, in the second place, they are very anxious that if there is to be popular election the Kandyans should form a separate constituency. They think that without the Kandyans being a separate constituency very few Kandyans, or perhaps no Kandyans, would get in, and if Kandyans did get in they would be that particular type of Kandyan who is most closely allied to the low-country Sinhalese.

MR. HAYLEY: That is so, and I should say that section really constitutes the very large majority of what you might call the true Kandyan. I do not know it personally, but that is the impression I have in my mind.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: Is there anyone here who knows the Kandyan district?

MR. COLES: I know the Kandyan district very well. So far as I know, the true Kandyans have no wish whatever for reform, and I think they are frigh tened that the low-country Sinhalese will go up into the Kandyan districts and swallow them.

MR. HERBERT Bois: It is a caste question really.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: The high class Kandyans are frightened of being MR. HERBERT BOIS: I think so, outnumbered.

out of it.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: I suppose they do not like the idea of having to canvass men of lower caste, and perhaps they would not do it.

MR. HERBERT Bors: They would not do it.

a

MR. HAYLEY: It is not so much a question of canvassing their men as question of antagonism between one caste and another, that one caste rather lower than the highest is on the whole more progressive, and it has the wealth of the country owing to the sale of plumbago. That caste is not the highest caste. That caste exists in the low country, too, and is very much surrounded by the others. THE SECRETARY OF STATE: After all, it is what people had to do in this country. Under the old system the territorial aristocracy returned all the members for country districts, and when you had popular franchise they had to bustle. They get in much the same. Very much the same sort of people now represent county constituencies.

from a few smiths.

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MR. HAYLEY: You cannot get the Kandyan to do that.-He is an agricul- turist. He lives on his field. He is practically entirely an agriculturist, apart As a rule they do not go in for commerce at all. All the shopkeepers are Sinhalese, apart from Moors. larger population of low-country Sinhalese than of Kandyans.

Kandy itself has a very much The Secretary OF STATE: It is a very puzzling question. having the elections on a territorial basis you had them on a communal basis, and had a purely Kandyan electorate, I am not sure that even then these high class Kandyans would get in; they would not unless they took some trouble about it.

MR. HAYLEY: That is possible.

If instead of

MR. COLES: To satisfy them you would have to have a caste basis which would be quite impossible.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: Quite impossible. The men who came to see me were quite well educated, they put their case extremely well, they had very pleasant manners, they spoke perfect English, and were extremely nice men. sympathy was entirely with them. I think they would be most desirable members. My If you are going to have an elected legislature at all I should like to see them in. They would be probably a very good selection. How they are going to get in unless they are prepared to fight for themselves a bit I really do not know.

MR. HAYLEY: There are very few of that type taking them pro rata of the population. Of the proctors, advocates and doctors, who, as a whole, constitute the majority of our educated classes on European lines, the Kandyan is a very small proportion, even in Kandy. I do not know that it is quite right to say that it runs on caste distinctions. There are all castes in Kandy, from the highest

to the lowest. I fancy they would all look with some suspicion and fear on reform.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: Yesterday I had here what you might call the Reform Party, and there were some Kandyans among them.

MR. HAYLEY: Yes, Mr. Molamure was here as representing the Kandyans. When I said "all I meant the great majority, not all. It is not necessarily a question of caste.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: This was a digression. It is an interesting point,

and I wanted to get your view about it. Now let us get back.

MR. HAYLEY: I was dealing with the question of the elected majority, and your Lordship asked me what particular fear we had.

As I make out you have no particular fear,

THE SECRETary of State: Yes.

but you have a general dislike to the idea of the native being in a majority in the Council. That is what it comes to, to put it bluntly.

MR. HAYLEY: Yes, if they are to be able to obstruct the Government to the extent at any time of defeating the Government over an essential measure, and practically taking over the framing of the laws of the country. That is what it comes to ultimately, unless the Europeans in the Council save the situation, which they would have to do, possibly against their own inclinations, to avoid a Govern- ment defeat. It would be very unfair to the Europeans to throw upon them the brunt of saving a Government defeat in case such a defeat was likely.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: If they agreed with the Government they ought to vote with it.

MR. HAYLEY: They might not agree. Occasions might arise when the unofficial Europeans would differ. Questions of this nature would only arise on matters in which there was a strong stand being made by both sides, otherwise the Govern- ment would give way without the exercise of the unofficial vote.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: But if you thought the Sinhalese, the elected people, were right, I do not see why you should not vote with them, and I do not see what harm would happen.

MR. HAYLEY: We might feel it incumbent upon us to vote with the Govern- ment in order to save a Government defeat, which would be a very serious thing for the country on a really important matter. A defeat of the Government's pro-

posals by the Council might-I do not say it would-it is almost impossible to say, but one can foresee cases in which the defeat of the Government by the Council, over a matter which the Government considered an important measure -in England it would bring about the downfall of the Government-in Ceylon it cannot, but it might have a very serious effect.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE: In England it cuts both ways. You often have a bad measure passed because the people say: "If we do not vote for this bad

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