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MAURITIUS ROTAL COMMISSION, 1909:

The Very Rev J. R. BILSBORROW.

18942 I know a good many clergymen who have not that amount to live upon-Laving may be very much cheaper there.

13.943 No, it is more expensive than it is in Mauritius?—I give it up. It is only 8t a year, and if a man has to keep a horse and carriage and a

ervant, and clothe himself and cats are dear things dear here-it must be very hard work.

11,944 I have seen many priests who only get 50/- Perhaps they live in community

every.

1945 No, living by himself in a country district; living just like the mitives; apparently quite satisfied; with no means of raising any other funds from any when else?-There is no doubt that some of them do live on what they can get.

1946y that because I have been so filled with normous respect for their sacrifices, and so on. When you say what you do with regard to their salary. I am only obliged to say that I have seen many others who do not get even so much as you suggest?--I am speaking practically. I do not want to take exceptions.

Y

13947 If it was not that the Government gives this money, many of the priests here could not get as much as they do gạt Is not that ao-The Govern. ment giving it to them is a funny way of putting it. It is the people, after alt, who pay it do not under. stand it People sometimes have the idea that it is the British Government who is giving it, but it is the people in Mauritius who are paying it. what it matters to Downing Street what it is, except, you say, as a matter of economy As a matter of seconomy I can accept it.

I do not see

14.948 That would be all right if they were able to met their liabilition, but when they ask the British Government to do things for them, then that puts the boot on the other leg. When they ask the British Government to guarantee loans, and they have asked the British Government not to take the very all Military contribution which they make, then, of ear, that makes a difference-But still, even with regard to the granting of a loan at 5 per cent., I do not see what particular generosity there is in that.

13.048, (Mr. Woodcock.) I do not think it is a matter of nerosity -I am very much puzzled myself. The Culony is really rich, in my opinion. It is rich by reason of the immense amount of sugar production, but the unfortunate thing is that the money which comes into the Colony goes out again without circulating in the Colony. That is what I put it down to. Suppose a loan is granted to them. it will flow out of the Colony again in a few years. The people are poor; there are no small industries.

Of

13,050. (Chairman.) How do you mean, by paying for foodstuffs!--Money goes out for everything: it do not circulate in the Colony; that is my ides. cours I have thought about these things sometimes. it is not my business.

13.951. How can you get over that? You can get ser it by preventing it to a certain extent.

13,952. In what way ?-For instance, for all the ordinary things which men need, clothing, boots and so n. all the money goes out of the Colony. There are bootmakers, tailors and shirt makers and the rest, but they get no work, and all the money for those things goes out of the Colony for French workmen and English workinen to the Bon Marché and the Louvre, and I am toll, even by one of the Douane officials, that as much an Rs. 4,000 or Ra. 5,000 a day is paid in customa duties on these goods. I think really the Colony is rich. I remember Mr. Chamberlain, when he was Secretary of State for the Colonies, writing here, when they wanted a loan, and saying that it had never yet been proved to him that the sugar industry is carried on at a lows, nor is it carried on at a lows só far as I can see, that is to may, the sugar industry itself, apart from working on borrowed capital.

13,983. (Mr. Woodcock.) How would you remedy that P--I think by re-arranging the Customs duties.

13,954. How would you do it ?-By allowing the ww material for different trados, clothes and such like things, and leather for harness to come in practically free, and to put on a very heavy tax, a practically prohibitive tax, on all made-up articles, because, it is

[Continued

absolutely heart-breaking to see the people so poor They have nothing to do; there is nothing but casual work—casual labour perhaps for two days of the week The position of the Colony is due to the poverty of the middle and lower class people. All these petty offences, for which Mauritius gets a bad name, are due to the poverty of the Colony; it is hunger. They would not go out at night to dig up manive if it were not for that.

13,955. You give that as your view of the proper remedy; that you think there should be almost a pro. hibitive tax on the importation of manufactured gooda ?—Yes, I think so.

19,956. (Chairman.) What would the people of Manritina say if you suggested that I work from the principle that money goes out of the Colony and plenty of money comes in. The Colony ought to be rich, but the money goes out without circulating in the Colony. Its blood is being constantly drawn out

of it.

13,957. I imagine, of course, they would say, "Why should not they buy in the shops you have mentioned "? --I consider that protection in that way is absolutely necessary for the people. I work on that idea myself. I get my boots and cassocks made in my own pariah; and it seems to me it is obvious that it is better to spend Rs. 12 or Ra. 20 about 8t. Pierre than to send it to the Bon Marché or the Louvre.

19,958. Directly we came here we noticed what is a very curious thing to us, especially to those of us who have been travelling about the world a great deal, that there is not a single thing which is produced in Mauritius which in peculiar to the place P-Quite so.

13.959. I am told that there is one small kind of basket-I have not seen it being sold myself; but I have never been in a place in the East before where there are not numbers of small shops where they sell things which are made in the place and which are peculiar to the place ?-Undoubtedly.

13.960. That naturally makes one wonder why that is. It is not as if it could not be done. I myself could say a dozen things almost directly which the very poorest people could do, and which would find a ready sale P-But the number of strangers who come here to buy those things is very small.

13,961. But during certain months of the year you constantly get tourists who come here from South Africa P-No, only this year. There have never been tourists here until this year.

13,962. That is most extraordinary, because I was told, "Oh, yes, always in the winter time they come hero"-When those gentlemen came recently from South Africa we could not put them up. Tourists scarcely ever come here; an odd one now and again.

**

13,963. The answer I received was: "Oh, yes, but of course it is only for about three months in the year, "and then there is nobody comes,but during this time- "June, July, and August—they will come"?—That is quite gratuitous, I am afraid, I beg your pardon, but I. do not think that is true. There have never been any tourists here before. The Castle line is the first to start the idea, and quite recently.

13,964. Do you mean, if the people did make things that nobody would buy them ?-They do not huy them.

13,965. For instance, you speak here of the small ahoemakera, and so on. If you go into any town in the Easton will find rowa of Chinese bootmakers' shops, and all the shoe in the shops are made by the people there; not a single one is imported. They do a very big trade. If the people here were to make shoes, do you think that they would be bought P-No, they certainly would not.

13,966. They would not P-They would prefer to get their boots and shoes from the Bon Marché.

13,967. (Mr. Woodcock.) There must be a very limited number of people who can send abroad for their things ---I only suggest it as an idea, but, of course, that in only one way. There are the Chinsmen's shops which are a great evil. They make their money here, spend nothing and export the rupees. My theory in that if the money which goes out of the Colony regularly, or a notable portion of it, circulated in the

27 July 1909.1

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

The Very Rev J. R. BILBORROW.

Colony, there would be an improvement in the Colony at once, and it would be progressive. If 50,000 re- mained in one year. It would be 100,000 in the next your.

13.968. You are touching upon a very big question of political economy ?—I am not a political economist, but that is my idea.

13.969. Will you permit me just to turn for a moment to the matter that we were discussing, I see that there are a certain number of additional ministers who are not on the establishment; you have 10 additional priesta ?-Sixteen really now.

13,970. Those, not being, as I understand. on the establishment, are not pensionable P-No, they are

not

13,971. Now would not it be possible in the future, in the appointment of priests, without prejudice, of course, to existing rights, to make it a condition of appointment that they would not be pensionable P Do you mean with regard to others who shall come in the future?

13,972. Yes! It would if it were necessary, but of course, of those 16, 10 were granted some time ago, and then the six were granted, and they were put on without the right to pension, and of course, there would be no objection to its being done again.

13,973. But I am not talking about the establishment priests? The establishment is different, and I will tell you why. Most of these priests who were not put on the pensionable establishment belong to religious Orders, so their future is practically assured for them, that is to say, they can go back to England and enter a Monastery if their health is broken down and be taken care of, but the other are secular priests who have no sort of guarantee at all for their future, and if they leave here broken down in health they must starve, that is all.

13,974. I only speak for those that I know of-the Church of England men who go out to the mission field all over the world; they are not entitled to pen- sions; they have no pensions after they have done their days' work ?-But who sends them out? I do not know who sends them out.

13,975. The Church Missionary Society does the organising ----That is not a Government institution nt all.

13,976. It struck me it might be a solution. I want your views with regard to it. If for the future ap. pointments made to the establishment were made as non-pensionable appointments, what is your view of that P-I think it would be very objectionable to us, because it is most difficult for us to get priests to begin with, as the Colony has a bad name because it is so very unhealthy; and if we were to ask priests to come out here and to work out here for years without the prospect of a pension if their health should fail, it would be still more difficult. The pension is an attrac tion-one of the things which brings them here, or rather reconciles them to coming.

13,977. (Chairman.) Would you kindly tell us, do you consider that your headquarters, your practical head, is in England or in France ?—No, in Rome. We belong to the Propaganda. This is considered a mis- sionary country. The Bishop in directly responsible to Rome to the Propaganda; we have nothing whatever to do with the others at all.

13,978. You have nothing whatever to do with France, and you have nothing whatever to do with England —Except the British Government.

18,979. I mean ecclesiastically ?—No, we are not under either any British or French authority; we are directly under the Cardinal of the Propaganda.

13,980. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) Who is that now, in it Simeone?—It was. It is now, I think, Cardinal Gotti. 13.981. (Mr. Woodcock.) There is one other question I should like to ask you, and it is about the reforms- tory and the prisons. I was much struck, when I Årst came out here, and when we first discussed this question, to find that nothing—I think I am right in saying that is being done by the churches here on behalf of the discharged prisoners. Am I right in that P-Yes, I think it is so; nothing is done that I am aware of.

9700, c.

[Continued.

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13,982. It seems to me, if you will permit me to say so, that the Church is missing a great opportunity in not undertaking that work. I think you will agree with me in that, will you not -We have got more than we can do as it is, as a matter of fact.

13,983. And, again, with regard to the reformatory. I am only venturing to draw your attention to those things, and here is a very practical suggestion. Sup- posing, as has been explained to us by one of the witnesses, the reformatory, which seems to be in a most unsatisfactory state, might be taken over by your Church, and might be conducted by you, would you be willing to take it over if terms could be arranged?— We have offered to do so.

13,984. When you say "offered," have you made any practical suggestion to the Government ?—I think it has been done, but, as I say, we bould easily get either brothers or priests to take it over.

13,985. Without increasing the cost to the Govern. ment that it is now put to in respect of the reforma-

tory -Probably for less, because, as I tell you, we have no idea of making money.

13,986. You need not assure me of that P-I know they would be very glad to undertake the duty.

13,987. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) I should like to ask you, do you know all parts of the Colony ?—Not all; a great many parts.

13,988. Where is your neighbourhood P-St. Pierre, in the district of Moka. Of course I have been to other parts of the Colony.

18,989. You are in constant contact with the really poor class here, and yon say it is an increasing class? --Yes.

13,990. Does it comprise able-bodied people P-Yes, carpenters and bootmakers and all trades.

13,991. Those who have been accustomed to hand labour-skilled labour and you say there is nothing for them to do?-There is nothing for them to do.

13,992. Are they fairly healthy P-Fairly healthy, but of course they suffer from fever and want-chiefly want.

13,999. Have you ever considered what would be the best thing to do for them ?-That is one of the objects of my suggestion; that money should be made to circulate in the Colony.

13,994. That, of course, is a larger question, but I meant immediately, if you had enough to meet the case, say, of 50 of these poor people in your immediate surroundings, who are really doing nothing -I really could not make any suggestion, because there is no one who will give them work.

13,995. It has been suggested that they might be helped on to the land in some way, and could cultivate enough to live upon ?-But then in our place there is no land to give to them; in St. Pierre all the land in taken up with cane-growing.

13,996. (Chairman.) Government has a good deal of land in the Colony P-Yes, I dare say.

13,997. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) But there is no land in your neighbourhood ?—No, and then these men. of course, are men of certain trades. It would take a fair amount of land for them to enable to make a living out of canes. There is certainly not enough land to distribute right round.

18,998. That is a thing one cannot tell from looking at a map, but here are people that you know are poor, and you say that in that Moka district there is no land Available —No.

13,999. I suppose the Poor Law Department gives asistance ?---The poor get very little relief. The poor are not relieved practically speaking at all; only a few casos here and there, and there are many many cases where a man is able to work but cannot get work. I my there is so much casual work. Take the case of a man with a wife and children who has no work; there is no relief for him or them at all. I assure you they come to my house, five or six or more every day, asking for a little relief, and for my part I really cannot make any suggestion as to how they can be helped. They are extremely poor and I think it is the reason of all the trouble with regard to stealing and a great deal of the immorality.

E

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MAURITIUM ROYAL COMMISSION, 1900

The Very Rev JR BishoKROW

For You think it is all due to that All due poverty, and there is no hope for it

Ton 13 Woalcock | Ti semis an extraordinary thing that there is no kind of poor law in the sense it whole we ouderstand it in Europe-that there should bone work-hotises or peer-houses where these propla There is a great deal of charity, as I tell can go toż you many give to poor relations and to poor servants out of place and to the vagrant poor they give Postantly

14 m2 18e Edard 6) Milley, I understand that you put it that any idea of tomeling the present status of the Roman Catholic Church in Mauritius would b intensely resented by the people? Of that I have no doubt at all it has been represented to me already

14,003 Suppose, if it were necessary to really make sonomies or that further taxation be imposed to meet the difficulty of the situation, do you think they would be must ready to acquiesce in something of the nature of a poll tax-The Catholicn?

14,004. Yes, or a cutting-off of the Grant ?—They would be willing to make a sacrifice, no doubt, so far

the clergyuen are concerned

14,5 Yea, but I am speaking now of the people P -I do not think the people would. They are too sensitive on the point

14.00 Yes, but I mean, supposing it came to a choice between the two methods, one of cutting down the religious endowment and the other of putting fresh taxation on the people, which would they prefer?—I think they would prefer fresh taxation, without the slightest hesitation.

14007 You think wo? Yes, as far as I can judge, 1 should be perfectly certain of it.

14. And as far as economy goes, you think the taxation to meet the want--we know what the amount of the endowment i8, RA. 102,000 – you think R. 102,000 might be raised by taxation without so much resentment on the part of the people as cutting off their religious endowment ? --Mont decidedly. I feel ertain of it. It is a matter of sentiment, almost as much as you might say a matter of their Mauritian nationality.

11,000 With regard to that question of the con. struction which was put upon the Capitulation by Lord Derby, you say that that is not the view taken. at all events, by your people ---No, not by any meana.

11,010. You say it is not a question of France or England. but your mission here is under the Roman Propaganda? Directly under the Propaganda.

14,011. (Chairman ; 1 would just like to ask you this question. You said to Sir Edward O'Malley that you did not think there was enough Government land Does it in your district for the poor people there matter whether the lands are in that district or not? The whole Island is a very small place indeed, and if the Government has got lind anywhere in Mauritius, I suppose it would do in order to put very poor people on it Exactly; I am referring to the poor in my listrict, the men and the families there.

We have beard a good many 14,012. Quite ao. witnesses we have rather suggested it ourselves and they have fallen into the way-who say that they think te hnical classes would be very good, but from what you say to-day, is there any particular use in making artisans if they have got nothing whatever to do? Nome whatever, in my opinion.

14,013. It may be a mistake --And besides the men have got wonderful natural manual dexterity. I could give you cases. They have quite a talent for anything requiring manual dexterity, as carpenters, TUMSOILA, Carvers, and so on.

ilo.

14,014. Why do not they use their talent -They I can give you an instance. I have got a stone- mauson who can neither rend nor write, and he has carved a Celtic cross six feet high, with lettering and designs upon it.

14,015. You mean that talent is not everything, because there is no market for it --There is no market for it, and they do not need what you might call technical school education for their ordinary work; you mean to say for extraordinary work,

Continued

14016 No what we auggested was that it with a good thing, instead of teaching them Latin and Greek for instance, that it was better to teach them to b good agricultursta, to be mechanics, to be printers, and so forth, and we have been told. for instance. 1 think we were told yesterday by Mr Pitot, that he takes right boys every year into the railway workshops, and that they have done extremely well, so that I am ruther astonished when you tell us that there is no outlet for anybody? -1 dare say Mr Pitot does take eight people, but that is the sunly one place in the Colony where they could take them.

14017 He says they become engineers on board steamers and all kinds of things, and they have done very well They do, but as mechanics or assistants at But I first and then they manage to get a certificate. thought you were speaking of the establishment of a school with the object of teaching them.

14.018 I call that a school ?-That exists already There are bourses at the schoola.

14,019 Then we suggested that there might be an Agricultural Department where they would teach the buys the scientific cultivation of canes and other things? -I think that there are already one or two bourses. Agricultural bourses, and the students go to Pample- mouses to be taught in the Gardens.

14,020. Do they do so ?—Yes, I believe they do zu. I know they used to do so.

14.021. Then there is the Government printing establishment. They issue so many newspapers in Mauritius that you would have thought, if the place was so pour as you have described, that it could not have supported eight newspapers in a very rich place I know, they are quite satisfied with two?—I doubt very much whether it supports any of them.

14,022: Will you tell us, lastly, do you know any- thing about the education here at the Royal College. and education in the Colony generally P What is your view about primary and secondary education in Mauritius -Of course there is one point with regard to the Royal College, that I should be glad if the bourses could be free, could be open to all.

14,023. (Secretary) The English scholarships, you mean Yes. As für buck as 1836, Lord Glenelg -- I think that was the name stated that he was willing to accept any plan or programme which they might adopt at the Royal College, but that it should have no exclusive privilege, or no privilege which should be prejudicial to the interests of any other college.

other

14,024. (Mr. Woodcock.) Are there any colleges -There have been There was a college conducted by the Fathers of the St. Esprit, but they had to give it up because they were not allowed to compete for the bourses. To compete for the bourses students must have three years' residence at the Royal College, and, of course, it takes the best students away from the private colleges for three years. If they remained at the collage they could not compete for the bourses.

14,025. Do you think it would mean competition

- Yes.

14.026. Do you think that would improve educa tion Yes, it would..

14,027. (Chairman.) We suggested that to Mr. Leclézio, and he said that would be the most wicked thing that could be done in Mauritius?—I cannot understand why Mr. Leclézio said so, or why the other Deputies said no, except, of course, that they are Deputies. They say it is a question of bringing the white and coloured races together, but it is rather the opposite. It is not as if they live together, it is only a day school; they scarcely salute each other. You have Father Chalvet, who was religious instructor there, and he tried to get them to sit together, indis- criminately, and the bigger boys said: "No, it will not do."

14,028. I naked one of the fathers of the boys about this question. I asked him if they played together. and he said always ?—So they do, but those are little boys in the school; they would play with a black baby. 14,029. No. I am speaking of the Royal College.

He said that, with regard to his own boys, he told them all they were to associate with the coloured boys and

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

The Very Rev JR. BILAĦORROW

27 July 1900

they did I quite understand it with sumil boys, because they play with little Indians and so on, because they are unconscious of those social distinctions, but when they get bigger that censes

14,930. What do you think of the Royal College Schools-I do not see why they should keep up the schools at all; if there was free competition. there would be employment for many teachers.

14031 But you recognise that they are the only secondary schools in the Colony where boys can get an education without any religious teaching, therefore they are undenominational?-But they do get religions tenching

14,032. At those schools ?—Yes, I think so, there Is a religious instructor there

14,033. (Mr. Woodcock.) It is not compulsory, I think that is the point ?—It would not be compulsory. For instance, if we had in our college one of the boys who was not a Catholic, there would be no compulsion exercised with regard to him.

14,934. (Chairman.) They would not like to send him to you? I beg your pardon, there are no people who more favour the Roman Catholics than the Indiana.

14,035. That is so, is it -Yes.

14,036. That is new to us P-When the surra was on. which was a most grievous misfortune in this Colony, there was one wealthy Indian who came to the cathedral and asked the Bishop to say mass, to pray God to deliver the Island from the surra, and he wanted a grand ceremony; it was not a matter of Rs. 3, as it would have been ordinarily speaking, but he wanted a grand ceremony, no matter what the cost, and he would himself provide flowers and candles, &c. It is always the same with regard to us.

14,037. (Mr. Woodcock.) However, you think they would send their children to Roman Catholic schools? Yes, I do think so. I can tell you this. In my own district three Indiane wrote to me asking me to build a school and they would send their children there, and. if I liked, they could learn the catechism. Of course, we never do teach the catechiam to Pagan children. As I say, throughout the whole Colony there is the greatest peace it is possible to have from a religions point of view; but with regard to primary education. I must confess that I have taken very little interest in that. I was, at first, on the primary education com. mittee, but it was not much use working for it. The Director of Public Instruction came out to make a new

code.

¡Continued,

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He had had nu experience of the old rode or, It was apparently, of any code of primary instruction. very unsatisfactory work. The conditions are difficult for the teachers. Within even the last year they bave extended powers to the inspectors which really give them every facility for failing a school, if they choose.

14,038. Not allowing it to get a grant, you mean? ---Yes, not allowing it to get the necessary percentage

of passes.

I myself am a manager of schools. My teachers complained that nine months after the pro gramme had been fixed for the school year it was interfered with and added to. I complained to the director, who said: “Leave this to the leniency of the inspectors, they will take that into consideration,”* and they did, and failed one school. Teachers think it unfair. All that we want is to have. Catholic schools with Catholic teachers, and for the rest, of course, we accept anything with regard to the programme. But if they wanted to make economies, for instance, they could very easily do away with some Government schools, which cost far more than the aided schools do. I think economies could be made, even on all the primary schools, because they give some very high grants, much higher than were given before, although, really the difference does not come so much from the high grants as the fact that formerly they did not pay the amount which was earned by the school; they only paid a percentage of it. They said there was no more money, whereas latterly, under the new code, they pay the full amount earned.

14,039. (Chairman.) You know that a good many members of the Council of Government are for having the new code abolished, and a return to the old-code?

Yes, I should have no objection to that myself.

14,040. You would have no objection to that ?—No. I think the new system was rather a mistake. matter of fact, I remember Mr. Leolégio, when he voted in favour of the change, was rather against it.

As a

14,041. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) Why?—It was because the Bishop of Port Louis had accepted it--not the code, but a director. The director was the point, and the Bishop of Port Louis had consented to accept a Director of Public Instruction. He did so with`s great deal of diffidence, and only on the assurance that there should be rather a change of policy in favour of denominational schools, and, as a matter of fact, I think he made a mistake.

14,042. That is not the reason that Mr. Leclézio gave us P-No, he gives one reason and does not give the other perhaps.

The witness withdrew.

(14)

The Very Reverend EMILE CHALVET, called in and examined in private through an Interpreter.

14,043. (Chairman.) Where Vacoa.

do

you live P-At

14,044. What is your special work ?—I am the vicar of the parish.

14,045. Do you know anything about the Reforma. tory ---Only from hearsay what I heard was very unfavourable.

14.046. Do you ever visit the prisons P-I. did formerly about 14 years ago, when I was at the cathedral; I used to visit them regularly every week.

14,047. Did you ever take any interest in the prisoners when they were released P-Some of them; they came to me either at Port Louis or later on in my parish in the country.

14,048. Can you tell us whether there is any individual or any society that looks after the prisoners when they are released, in order to enable them to get work P-Not to my knowledge.

14,049. Do not you think it would be a good thing if there was one P-A very good thing.

14,050. How could such a society be formed ?—I am rather embarrassed to answer at first, but I think such

a society should be based mainly on Christian prin- ciples.

14,051. Have you ever had anything to do with the Royal College P-I was Religious Instructor there for 14 or 15 years, and at the school in Port Louis, with the main College at Curepipe.

14,062. When did you stop doing that ?—On my return from Europe in 1906.

14,053. What do you think of the boys there; do the white boys and the coloured boys all mix together, and are great friends?—At the school, yes, but less in the main college.

14,054. Had you anything to do with the schools? —Yes, I was at the school as Religious Instructor; at the school at Port Louis.

14.055. Then you were at the school at Port Louis and also at the college -Mainly at the college at Curepipe, and not the school at Curepipe.

14,056. I mean, is it noticeable that they do not make friends --They are not enemies. I have never known repulsion between the two classen, but there is something between them.