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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O. 882

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

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1 July Eng

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1:800

M VICTOR HITEAT

1933 lerman What is the ajntal »f the hauk

R 2,000,00 uncles ordinary vireumstances ?

Wondrock Is it a limited liability POH M mpany in England? No.

pota is it registered in England -It is not gostered as England It is a purely local bank

Hd Chairman, Have you got any reserve - We have a reserve This is the last balance (Some handed 1 The reserve is Rs 1.140,000 1017 Sir Edward () Mulley ). Are the other shares pad up? No the share is Rs 200 and those Rs. 200 have been paid, but the shareholder is responsible for ́unother call of Re 2001 on each share

- Let

is that how long Woodcock For 2018 CM bability -All the time the bank will be in existence, 1 think. I mean, of course, the shareholder for the time being

1049 – How long does the lubility continue?-That as a matter upon which I cannot give you an opinion I think that the responsibility reason with the sale of the shares

1050 (Chairman Therefore it is for these reasons that you see no special reason for the Government to borrow money to lend to planters; you think that everything that the planter can possibly require he can get here -I see no reason why Government should borrow to assist planters.

1

4051 Whatever money they want they can get. provided they can give ascurity-May 1 he allowed Up to give some figures in support of my statementa to now the lank has done all the business that has been offered to it with the guarantees that have been offered. The cash balance is actually very high. have been on the board of the bank for at least 20 years, and only in one instance, some 10 years ago, Ielieve. was the cash balance as high as it stands today. The cash balance today is Rs. 2,950,000, and we do not find employment for these funds, and I should like to add that our position us regards cash with our bankers in London, Paris and in India stands at Rs. 1,400,000 and a sum of Rs. 500,000 which will be Ba sent forward as remittance to India to-morrow. that the total figures of these balances would bring up the cash balance to over Rs. 4,000,000

4052. (Mr. Woodcock. Bills payable or Bills re- ceivable-Bills payable or bille receivable. Do you whh the amount of it?

4953. (Chairman) I do not think it is necessary; if you choose to give it, we shall be obliged, but 1 do not think we want it, I do not think that is necessary. You told us that the balance to-day, in your own case. including your correspondenta, in over Rs. 4,000,000 7— These Rs. 2,950,000 are in cash in the bank safe and the balance to make up the Rs 4,000,000 is spread over London, Paris and India.

4054. Your correspondents in India are at Bombay! -Our correspondents in India are at Bombay, Cal- cutta, Madras and Karachi.

4055. Do you think it would be of advantage to Mauritius, having regard to all the circumstances, that an agricultural bank should be instituted here for the purpose of lending money to help the small people —I have never thought it necessary that an agricultural bank should be established here.

4058. I mean Bo that they might obtain what money they require at a low rate of interesat P-The greater portion of these small planters consist of Indians who have small plots of land. This land, for most of the time, is not en réglé; it sometimes is not paid off.

4057. What do you mean en réglé? Do you mean it does not belong to them -For instance, if you sell an acre of land to the Indian for a sum of Rs. 300, when the Indian takas possession of his land he pays you « small sum on account. Rs. 25 or Rs. 30; a provisional receipt is granted for that payment and he sometimes remains four or five years before he pays the price of the land in capital and interest. It is only then that the seller of the land can put him really into possession.

4088. That is what I understood en réglé to be. Of course, until the land is his, you mean he has.no

Continued

Nourity to give for a ban? -He has a security t offer of any sort

1

4059 But are the majority of lands held by the small planters paid for, or have not they yet been fully pand for? It would be difficult for me to answer positively to the question, but I know that there are a great many plots of land which have beeu sok and not paid for yet As an illustration, in the year 1898), we purchased an estate in the District of Placy When skywe." mean the firm of Elina Mullae & The Company, of which I am the senior partner estate is miled Sebastopol. We parcelled out the estate This took place 19 years ago and there are some 20 or 25 purchasers who have not yet finished We were only There are 600 or 700 arres paying paid some 6, 7 or 8 years afterwards, and I may even say 10 years afterwards.

4060 You began by saying there were still so many who had not finished paying-Yes.

4061 How many is it? There are still some 15 acres for which we have not been paid.

4062. What was the extent of the estate?About 1,000 acres I can also cite a second instance.

4063. One moment before you leave that one There were 1,000 acres, and I understand that of that 1.000 nares there are still about 15 acres which are not yet completely paid for, and that with regard to a large quantity of the land the payments were not completed for 7 or 8 yours? That is exactly what I say.

4 Then with regard to the other instance, what do you say -The other illustration is of an estate at Moka. Mesars, Elias Mullac & Company were the owners of an estate at Moku called Hermitage, con- sisting of about 900 acres. There was no factury on the estate. At the beginning of last year we resolved to parcel out this estate. Almost all the estate bus been parcelled out and is sold, but we have received almost nothing, so far, and we do not expect to be paid before five or six years or more.

4065. (Mr. Woodcock.) May I ask a question on thut. I understand that these Indians, the small planters, keep their engagements; do you think they pay honestly-They take their time to do it, but they do pay in the end. Some are not honest, but the majority meet their engagements.

4066. Holding their land in that way, unpaid for, of course you cannot lend them money because they have no security?—No, we cannot.

4067. Would you be prepared to lend them money on personal security if a large number of them agreed together to give you that personal security ?-From a banker's point of view I would not like to do the business, because when the Indian does not wish to pay he disappears and there is an end to the matter.

4068. But you would then have a large number left on whose personal security you could rely for what it is worth? Yes.

4069. The banker would rely on them ?—No, I certainly would not advance; that is quite out of my way of business.

4070. And you would not be inclined to entertain such business if a responsible man joined these little Indian communition ?—No, I would not be at all inclined.

4071. Do you know that the Bank of France has enormously increased its business by lending money to agricultural banks formed of committees in that fashion P-I have heard so, but it is a question whether such an operation could be undertaken here.

4072. You do not think that it could I very much fear that it could not be undertaken.

4078. Not even if reputable gentlemen joined these committees with the Indiana, as a sort of philanthropy. if you like You might perhaps find people to do this business, but personally my firm would not entertain

it.

We, that in to say my firm, make advances to sugar estates, but we are very cautious.

4074. It was the bank I was asking about ?—The bank in very cantions in its way of doing business, and it would not undertake such business as you mention.

1 July 1909]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. VICTOR HUTEAU.

4075. (Chairman.) You know that Dr Laurent told us that these small planters are terribly squeezed, that people charge them most enormous rates of interest when they have to borrow a little money. Now is there any foundation for that statement -I believe the statement to have been very much exaggerated. It may be that Indiuns, among themselves, lend at very My opinion high rates, that is akin to their nature.

is that the planters do not advance money to small Cultivators at such enormous rates. The small planters* canes are very much sought after-even too much so. It is equivalent to saying that there would be less Competition. I do not believe so, because these culti- vators canes are very much sought after. If a manufacturer offered to lend money to a small planter at 15 to 20 per cent., the planter would very naturally

to a neighbouring manufacturer, who would offer him conditions less onerous, and competition would **NAUG. The Indian is a very intelligent man and capable of defending his rights.

4076. I should like to ask you one or two quite simple questions. It is suggested that large interest is obtained by these very people you speak of-the manufacturer who makes it a condition that the canes shall be brought to a particular mill. Now I under. stund you to say that there is so much competition for canes that it is the small planter who has got the whip hand, rather than the manufacturer who says, Unless you do this and that, I will not crush your canes. There is no danger, is there, of it ever being possible that the manufacturer, the "nainier," would be able to say to the small planter, "I will only lend money at a ruinous rate of interest, and you must bring your canes to my particular mill to be crushed "P-That may have occurred five or six years ago, but to-day. with the increased railway communication. I cannot admit such a possibility.

LA

4077. (Mr. Woodcock.) Do you say there is perfectly free competition then ?-Perfectly free., Canes actually are sent from the district of Moka to the district of Canes were Pamplemoussen, some 25 miles away. actually sent last year from the Standly Eatate in the district of Bose Hill, in the district of Plaines Wilhems, to the district of Grand Port, which is a good distance

away.

4078. (Chairman.) I would like to ask you, do you think there is any necessity, or, indeed, any advantage in Government money being borrowed for making great central factories P-I am not in favour of the system.

4079. It has been suggested that there is a necessity for making central factories, simply in order that the small cultivator may have an opportunity of getting Is there any his canes crushed on equitable terms. good ground for making the suggestion that he is not likely always to get his canea crushed P-I do not think the argument is a good one.

4080. You think that it is necessary to put the railways in good order P-Yes, I believe so.

4081. And, as regards suppression of malaria, what do you think is it necessary to borrow the money to carry out Dr. Ross's recommendations? Are you in favour of doing that P-I think it is indispensable; it is a question of health for the whole population and, of course, necessary.

4082. Of course you do not bind yourself to the particular figure ?-1 know nothing of Government business.

4083. It is only that that is the recommendation of the expert. You think that soonomies might be made in the Government service, you have told us, by reducing the number and increasing the pay?-There is no doubt as to that.

4084. Now we come to the question of whether it is advisable, having regard to the financial difficulties of the Colony, to increase the sonroes of revenue?

-Yes.

4085. In reply to that, you say that a ospitation tax may be instituted; you do not say how much a head? -I have taken information before answering the question, and I was told that at Seychelles they had a capitation tax which worked very well, which was for adulte, Re. 3 per head, and that is what I formed an opinion upon.

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[Continued.

4086. Would you apply it to all classes and to all nationalities?—I think everybody should pay a capita- tion tax.

From 20, do you mean, 4087. Between what ages ? or under something P-I would not like to give an opinion.

4088. You have not gone into that question ?– No. but I believe that everybody should pay a capitation tax

4089. Do you think that that is preferable to a house tax or to an income tax P-I should prefer the capitation tax, because it is more easy to collect. what makes me say it is easier.

It is

4090. It is much easier, but is it as just, for instance, as an income tax-Mauritius is populated by a large number of natives, and it would be a great difficulty for Government to control the income tax; that is my belief.

4091. Would that apply to a house or land tax, or both? Would those be easily collected P-I am not in favour of a land tax.

4092. You think there should be no land tax-No. There are there are many charges upon the land. many people here who have enormous advantages, and who pay absolutely nothing. I believe Rs. 3 would be a very small sum for those who actually pay nothing.

I should prefer a capitation tax to an income tax.

4093. Suppose that Rs. 3 might be a very small sum indeed for a well-to-do Asiatic merchant, would not it be a very large sum for the Indian manumitted coolie ? -The ordinary coolie makes money in this country.. The day labourer on the quay in town, and even in the country on estates, makes some money.

4094. What are the ordinary rates of wages P-On the estates ?

4095. Anywhere-the ordinary labourer. What is the day's wages of an ordinary labourer -About ■ rupee a day; they make that on an average—a rupee a day.

4096. Does the ordinary labourer make as much as that!-No.

4097. What does the ordinary labourer make? Does he make half a rupee P-The ordinary coolie's wages are Ra. 8 to Rs. 9 a month, but with rations.

4098. He gets rations as well ?-Yes. He does not pay for any medical assistance or even for his medicines. 4099. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) In that for all coolies ? -All coolies employed on the estates.

4100. (Chairman.) Is it just the same whether they are under agreement or not whether indentured coolies or not?—They are under engagements.

4101. Only indentured coolies. What about the free coolies? What are their wages --The ordinary coolie makes about Ea. 15 a month; it may be a little

more.

4102. Then, on the whole, you are not in favour of a tax on land, nor a tax on houses, nor an income tax ? -No.

4108. You are not in favour of the income tax because it would be difficult to collect, and you are not in favour of a land tax because you think that the land already has so many charges that it would not be fair to put a tax upon it. In there not a large ares of land beld by natives; they would have to pay -I would not like to see any tax on land.

4104. But it is very usual always for the land to pay a quitrent; here it pays nothing-nothing at all ! That may be, but I am not really in favour of a land tax.

4105. (Mr. Woodcock.) Have you considered whether the imposition of such a tax would not tend to bring more land into cultivation if it were put, for example, on uncultivated land? If you had a tax put upon uncultivated land there would be a tendency to bring it into cultivation, would there not ?—It might bring it into cultivation.

4106. (Sir Edward O'Malley) What are the charges on land? There is the bringing of the land under oultivation, the upkeep of that land, and the export duty on sugar.