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COLONIAL CURRENCY COMMITTEE:

Sir J. Russell, that is imported, and the countries where it goes to, are given at very great length. This also gives the 5 July 1893.

trade with Hong Kong, as taken by the Commissioner of Customs at Kowloon, which is at the other side and also at a place near Macao, called Lappa.

259. That is on the mainland opposite Hong Kong? -Yes! that is on the mainland opposite Hong Kong.

Mr. W. G.

Canllawa

200. (Mr. Courtney.) That is the Imperial Mari- time Customs ?—Yes.

201. These figures are derived from that ?—These figures are made up from that, so Mr. Wetmore states. 262. Do you know how the scale of prices is made up in these returns ?--I do not know how he got the prices here. This gives the values; I think it must be from something else. This table only came by the Just mail, I cut it out of a newspaper two or three days ago and have not compared it.

263. The purchasing power in China is rather a large phrase. That would mean the prices at one of two ports perhaps, or the comparison of ports ?—In all probability it is taken from the whole of China.

261. The whole of China ?—You see the open gorts extent from Newchwang down to the very south of China, and the returns of trade are given from every Commissioner at every port—the detail returns. 265. (Chairman.) Do you suppose this is an average of prices from the different ports?—I take it that that is what it is.

265. (Mr. Courtney.) Take a single article-cotton; how is the price of cotton arrived at?-Well, cotton is chiefly produced there; this is of course cotton grown in the interior.

267. Raw cotton this is ?—I do not know how he has got that, but recently a great quantity has been shipped; I do not know how he lins arrived at it; I have not had time to examine it. "A dec■le ago

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raw cotton was shipped to the extent of only 23,000 piculs, but during the year under review 508,800 piculs, valued at lik, tls. 5,069,000 left the centre of China, the bulk of it going to Japan to supply the "umerous spinuing mills in that country." That shows that there has been an enormnous in roase, There is little or no cotton-unless yarn and manufac- tured piece goods going into China.

268. (Chairman.) But you do not know how those ilgures are got ?—I do not know except what the table

etalen.

269. (Lord Farrer.) Is there a mint in China? There is a mint recently established in the south of China at Canton,

270 And do they coin many dollars?—They have not coined many I believe; it has only recently been

started.

271. (Mr. Meade.) They coin subsidiary coin ?— They coin subsidiary coin, yer.

272. (Lord Farrer.) But China, as well as

Hong Kong, depends for their circulation upon the importa- tion of Mexican dollars ?-Entirely.

273. (Sir R. Welby.) And the bar silver?—And the bar silver.

274. In the northern parts the dollar does not circulate ?-No; they do not have the dollar much, except at the ports and the districts about them. When they want to send into the interior it nearly all goes in in sycee. All round about the ports they use the dollar.

275. (Lord Farrer.) There is no tax on the im- portation of silver, either in China or Hong Kong, is there?—None.

276. (Mr. Meade.) Have you considered at all what would be the effect on Hong Kong if the Sherman Act is repealed?-Well, nothing further than that there will be a fall; it is supposed there will be a still further fall in the price of silver, unless it is limited by the less productive mines going

out of work. The effect, some of the bankers tell me, is that they think that about 70 cents. the dollar will be about the limit; it cannot go much below that they think.

277. (Chairman.) I suppose the question would he that the effect of the repeal has been a good deal discounted by the announcement that this special session is to be called?-Exactly, that is the iden

(Mr. Fairfield.) But even if silver were to fall, it would be a great advantage to most of the merchants in many ways, would it not, as for instance, in regard to their overdrafts to the bank, their mortgages, and their rent the burden of all these things would be diminishel, would they not? So far as trade is concerned the exports of China would be enormously increased it is supposed, but, of course, there is one great drawback about these fluctuations in silver, especially fluctuating downwards, and that is the want of capital going out; they cannot get English capital to go out and get invested there, and that may tend to do injury.

279. (Chairman.) You have not heard at all what has been the effect on the market of cotton yarns between India and China, the recent action of the English Government ?—Nothing, I have not heard anything yet. Of course Indian cotton has been enormously increasing, the export from India to China and Japan has been increasing greatly these last few years.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned till Wednesday next at 11 a.m.

At the Colonial Office, Downing Street, S.W.

SECOND DAY.

Wednesday, 12th July 1893.

PRESENT:

THE RIGHT HON. LORD HERSCHELL, THE LORD HIGH CHANCELLOR, G.C.B., CHAIRMAN, LORD FARRER. The Right Hon. Leonard Henry Courtney, Sir REGINALD Eable Welby, G.C.B.

M.P.

The Hon. Robert Henry MEADE, C.B. Mr. EDWARD Fairfield, C.M.G.

Mr. GEORGE W. Joussos, Secretary. Mr. W. G. GULLAND, of the firm of Mesars, Paterson, Simons, and Company, Singapore. 280, (Chairman.) You are partner in the firm of 12 July 1995. Messrs. Paterson, Simous, and Company, merchants,

a London ?--Yor,

281. And you carry on businoes in Singapore ?— Ice.

282. Have you had prolonged acquaintance with the Straits Settlements ? Since 1862.

283. The business of the Straits Settlements, we have heard, is chiefly in distributing business; it is rather an entrepốt than a place exporting the produce

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

of the country?-Entirely, with the exception of the sugar grown in Province Wellesley. You do not in clude the Native States ?

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284. I anı speaking now about the Straits Settle ments? The colony proper.

285. The exports being chiefly to China and Japan? -No the Netherlands India. We had a meeting in the City last January on this subject, and here are a few figures, if your lordship will allow me to give them, as to our chief exports and imports.

286-7. Certainly. I take these from a few remarks I male at the meeting in the City :-"Turning to the imports of Singapore and Penang, I have " classed them in two divisions-the one with gold "countrics and the other with silver countries. In "the gold countries I have put Java, which is on a gold basis, and alzo India; because, of course, all "we say or do is on the supposition that India will "close her mints. The result of my examination is **that I find the totul imports 78,864,366 dollars from “gold, 58,242,030 dollars from silver countries, while the total exports are 86,163,598 dollers to gold, and 39,859,144 dollars to silver countries. Our best "customer is Netherlands India. We imported from "her 22,000,000 dollars in 1991, against 21,000,000 ⚫ dollars from the United Kingdom from China "— (when I say China it includes Hong Kong, and the bulk goes to Hong Kong)-" from China, a silver "country, we imported 20,000,000 dollars, from Siam * 9,000,000 dollars worth, from Sarawak 1,000,000 dollars worth, and from the Malay States 19,00,000 dollars worth. Now, I take it these Malay States, "if we change our currency would change theirs also." The Malay States are the protected Native States, and if they come in with the colony on A gold basis it makes the volume of business we do with gold countries so much the larger.

"Taking "the exports in the same way we find that to "the United Kingdom we exported 24,000,000 dollars, to Dutch India 28,000,000 dollars, to China 10,000,000 dollars, to the Malay Peninsula ** 14,000,000 dollars, to Siam 5,000,000 dollars, and Saigon 5,000,000 dollars. I think, gentlemen, you "will see from that that the bulk of our trade is with "countries on a gold basis, and that we have little to "fear from making any change. Now, referring to "the detailed shipping list to see how trade was' con- #ducted with Java, where the currency is in gold, I "find continual shipments of guilders to Singapore and from Singapore, evidently the adjustment of "business between the two places. When a China- "man wants to draw produce from a Dutch outpost "he sends down so much in goods and the balance in "guilders, and I take it, gentlemen, if we made a change in our currency the Chinaman would carry "on the trade with Saigon, Siam, and the other silver "countries as they do now with Netherlands India. "I therefore think we have really nothing to fear in "making the change.”

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288. (Sir R. Welby.) What do you say the im- ports from China were ?-10,000,000 dollars the ex- ports, and 20,000,000 dollars the imports.

289. (Chairman.) The imports from Netherlands India, and from China are very nearly the same ?— Yos; they are about the sanie; no very great differ-

ence.

290. (Lord Farrer.) 22,000,000 dollars and 20,000,000 dollars.

291. (Mr. Fairfield.) You say the exports to the Dutch Indies are 28,000,000 dollars; is that all to Java ?-All to Java.

292. None to Sumatra ?It would include Sumatra.

203. Is not Sumatra practically a dollar country? It is in so far that planters pay their coolias in dollara, but the duty on tobacco has to be paid in guilters,

294. The currency of commerro - Is aliver

currency.

295. (Chairman.) What proportion of the 20,000,000 dollars is silver ?-The Government Gazette of April

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22nd last year gives the exact figures, I have not got it; but I have no doubt the Colonial Office have a copy.

296. (Sir R. Welby.) Have you a large trade with Borneo ?-A good deal; in silver.

297. But its cost; you have not put it separately? -I put it in the silver, I think.

298. (Lord Farrer.) Did I understand that the Dutch gold currency does not extend to Sumaten ?— It does, but the planters pay in Mexican dollars or

yena,

290. Silver dollars ?-Silver dollars,

800. (Mr. Mrade.) The Achinese insist on the pillar dollar?-That is going out of fashion. They used to insist on the pillar dollar, and the banks some times charged ten per cert, premium on them. But the natives are not such fools as some people try to make out They progress with the times, and sec what is for their own interest; the Achinese have found other dollars just as good, so they take them.

301. (Chairman.) The result of your examination of exports and imports is that the bulk, or rather the greater part, of the trade being with gold using countries, the difficulty arising from the difference of exchange owing to change in the value of silvor, affects the trade more than it would be affected if it were put on a gold basix ?—I do not quite understand- 802. The result of your figuros, as I understand, suggests that the dislocation of trade which arises from difference of standard is greater at present than it would be if you were on a gold basis ?-Certainly.

303. Inasmuch as the greater part of the trade is with gold-standard countries ?—Yes.

304. Suppose the gold standard were adopted in Singapore, would it not be likely to affect largely your trade with Chioa, for example?—I do not think so at all; because Chinamen perfectly understand ex- change. When they do business with Java they have to pay in guilders; in Siam they have to do with another currency; and with another currency else- where. When a man wants to do business with Java, he changes his Mexican dollars into guiklers, and so with any other place be considers the question of ex- change; and if we adopt a gold dollar, he would have no difficulty with a country that still retained the Mexican dollar. He would know perfectly how to arrange.

305. (Mr. Courtney.) Ilave you had more em- barrassment with Java than Hong Kong ?—No; because Chinamen understand exchange operations perfectly well, and the trade of Jaya has grown largely. Mr. Meade no doubt has the report of the Singapore Chamber of Commerce for 1892. At the meeting the, Chairman (Mr. Shelford) brought the subject forward -he spoke of Java: shall I read what he says?

306. (Chairman) Certainly.

307. (Mr. Meade.) What page ?—l'age 8: "You are aware that exchange between the Straits Settle- "ments and silver countries is on a fixed basis. Taking a series of years, the last 20 for instance, the "variations of exchange with India do not amount "to more than 3 or 4 per cent., while between this "and China it is even feas. On the other hand, the "exchange in the same period on England is from #48. 6d. to 28. 101d. (the average for 1892). With "Java it has varied from 2.61 to 1·70. I find, "from figures taken out for me, that the total trade "of the Colony with gold-currency colonies, placing "Netherlands India in that catagory, was, in 1801.. * 113,285,000 dollars, nud with silver-currency coun- "tries 118,000,000 dollars; if this alteration ju "India is carried out, and you transfer India frem

a silver to a gold country, you get a total of "145,750,000 dollars with gold countries and with "silver countries 85,600,000 dollars, From these “figures are omitted the value of bullion and of inter

settlement trade. And it has been suggested that this fixity of value which applies to trade with "silver countries should be transferred to gokl "countries; that is to say, that the Chinese trader "should be asked to share with the European

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Mr. W. G. Gulland,

12 July 1993.